A Short "ducking" to the reverb return

[mr_es335]

Hello,

I have had an acquaintance assisting me with setting up the overall sound of my guitars and he suggested the following:

His point: The function I was trying to show you was applying a short "ducking" to the reverb return.

<-- Begin Dialogue -->
The way I understand to do it in SAW/SAC according to the forum post we read was as follows:
See: http://www.sawstudiouser.com/forums/...ight=Sidechain
1. Create 3 inputs for 3 different guitars routed to the main output
2. Create a reverb as an FX buss with a compressor inserted after the reverb on the same buss
3. Use the auxiliary sends on each of the 3 guitar input channels to send to the reverb FX buss
4. Create auxiliary sends for all 3 guitars to a single buss that is not routed to any physical output (parallel) <-this bus will be used to control the side chain input of the compressor after the reverb
5. Activate the side chain trigger/key input for compressor and select the guitar buss

I recommend this because the reverb is very prominent in the mix. In order to achieve more clarity, you could use a compressor with a fast attack and release to allow plucked notes from the guitar to cut through the mix more clearly. (Attack around 1 ms and release around 20 ms ratio 3:1) Because you can not use all three of the guitars as a key input to trigger the compressor, you have to create a buss. The other advantage is that this allows you to balance each of the guitar inputs so that they all hit the threshold at the correct volume.
<-- End Dialogue -->

Can anyone shed more light on the "feature". The only reason that I am asking is that this scenario has me somewhat "intrigued".

More specially, how I can do all of this - in detail, in SAC.

Thanks in advance.

[mr_es335]

Hello,

My understanding of "side-chain" compression:

Attachment 2751

[Bob L]

Dell... you could do a similar effect by simply placing a pre-delay before the reverb return... no need for all the bus creation and parallel compression... use the echo-delay plug in front of the reverb and drop the dry sound down on the plugin... maybe set the delay to 20-40 ms... this will hold back the gtr from the reverb allowing the attacks to slide thru dry... then the reverb would be applied to the rest of the gtr sound.

Adjusting the dry signal to various levels will give you just the right flavor of attack.

Bob L

[Cary B. Cornett]

I understand exactly what Del is after, and pre-delay will not achieve the same thing. Unfortunately, I cannot improve on the description of the procedure as given.

The term "sidechain compression" is a bad description and is misapplied to describe something properly called parallel compression, which is not the trick described here. Ducking the reverb return by sending a copy of the dry reverb send to the sidechain input of the compressor ("keying" the compressor from the dry signal) is a trick worth trying.

[mr_es335]

Hello,

Thanks Bob and Cary for the replies.

Here is what I have done, creating a new session, and using just a single guitar to keep things simple:

1. Create one input for one guitar routed to the main output
I-01 - I/A: 01, Asgn: 1, Label: Guitar, Level: -06.00

2. Create a reverb as an FX buss with a compressor inserted after the reverb on the same buss
R-01: FX/Pre Fader: Insert Reverb and Compressor, Asgn: 1, Label: Reverb/Comp, Level: 00.00

3. Use the auxiliary sends on the guitar input channel to send to the reverb FX buss
AUX1: IN/PST/Level: 00.00

4 Create an auxiliary send for the guitar to a single buss that is not routed to any physical output (parallel)
* This bus will be used to control the side chain input of the compressor after the reverb
Question: How is this accomplished?
Note: For example, would this be AUX2 going to R-02 with R-02 have no outputs assigned? I am at a total loss here?

5. Activate the side chain trigger/key input for compressor and select the guitar buss
Question: How is this accomplished?
Note: For example, would this be Dyn/Key option for I-01 set to Chn 1? I am at a total loss here as well?

So, anyone who would care to complete steps #4 and #5 - this would be greatly appreciated.

[UpTilDawn]

...2. Create a reverb as an FX buss with a compressor inserted after the reverb on the same buss[/I]
R-01: FX/Pre Fader: Insert Reverb and Compressor, Asgn: 1, Label: Reverb/Comp, Level: 00.00...

I just have one observation at the moment -
Wouldn't the reverb and compressor usually be inserted in the Return Post position and not the Pre position?

[Cary B. Cornett]

I just have one observation at the moment -
Wouldn't the reverb and compressor usually be inserted in the Return Post position and not the Pre position?

No. Any send/return FX would be inserted before the fader in the return channel so that you could control the amount of returned signal in the mix. In the analog world, this order was really important to correct gain structure.

Let's go way back in time to show why. We'll keep our example simple: using a plate, specifically an old tube EMT 140. We know that this "vintage verb" definitely has a noise floor, a hiss from the amplifiers in the chain. Um... kind of like analog tape. And what did we do with tape? Print the signal hot to it to keep the noise down in the resulting mix. So it is with the old plate. You drive it decently hard to keep all that reverb you want above the noise. If you inserted the plate post fade in the return channel, you would be turning down the drive to the plate, but not the noise in the plate's amplifiers. Besides, that's what the SEND master is for. You adjust the drive to the plate with the send master, keeping it decently "hot", and if you want the reverb to be low in the mix, you turn down the return fader, which is AFTER the plate, so that you are also turning down the noise from the plate itself.

[UpTilDawn]

No. Any send/return FX would be inserted before the fader in the return channel so that you could control the amount of returned signal in the mix. In the analog world, this order was really important to correct gain structure.

Let's go way back in time to show why. We'll keep our example simple: using a plate, specifically an old tube EMT 140. We know that this "vintage verb" definitely has a noise floor, a hiss from the amplifiers in the chain. Um... kind of like analog tape. And what did we do with tape? Print the signal hot to it to keep the noise down in the resulting mix. So it is with the old plate. You drive it decently hard to keep all that reverb you want above the noise. If you inserted the plate post fade in the return channel, you would be turning down the drive to the plate, but not the noise in the plate's amplifiers. Besides, that's what the SEND master is for. You adjust the drive to the plate with the send master, keeping it decently "hot", and if you want the reverb to be low in the mix, you turn down the return fader, which is AFTER the plate, so that you are also turning down the noise from the plate itself.

That's interesting - I'd never used an actual plate verb before (having mostly used analog effects inline with guitar most of my analog days and mostly plugins since beginning to focus more on recording and then almost entirely in the box, since around 2003 maybe), but I totally see what you're saying.

I guess I've never concerned myself with that part of the gain staging where plugins have been concerned and always used post return inserts, controlling the amount of send from each channel strip (for convenience, maybe - I don't really know why), which controls the amount of drive from each channel to the verb.

I will have to dig into this next time I've got a low-level project to busy myself with.

Sorry to take the thread OT, mr es.

[mr_es335]

Hello,

Anyone?

For example...

1. Are steps 1,2, and 3 correct?
2. How do I configure steps 4 and 5?

Thanks in advance.

[TomyN]

Hi,
I think you'd need to flip the AUX busses, so that the reverb/compressor combination will be on R2 and the control on R1 (Afaik you can use use only 'lower' channels for keying in SAC)
4. I'm not sure if the reverb path is calculated at all when it's not routed. But you could assign to an unused output.
5. Is the tricky part. You'd need a compressor plug in which supports a 'key' input and can be configured to use Aux 1 as input.

I think that you'll not succeed without external patching.

Tomy