AUX: A Scenario and a Question

[mr_es335]

Angie,

Maybe I'm not understanding here, but the Mix control is a wet/dry control.

...Angie, you are correct...but it was more the output level control that I was attempting to ascertain.

Again, many reverb plug-ins allow for both insert and send usage...but apparently Valhalla reverbs do not.

For whatever reason, I seem to get better results using their reverbs as an insert effect, rather than a send effect.

The only question is that I really do not know why this is so? Should not both types of usages be identical - especially in the digital realm?

[Dave Labrecque]

Michael,
You stated, ...Okay!

For this "test" I am not inserting anything on R-01.

Whether I used PRE or PST fader on I-01/AUX1, I still have to set the R-01 level to -13.00db so that I no longer hear any actual increase in the output.

Just for interest, has anyone actually tried the scenario I posted at the beginning of this posting?

Lastly, someone suggested that I use a gain plugin after Valhalla's reverbs to add the output control that this plugin appears to be missing.

PS: I have tested this scenario in both SAW and SAC and am getting the same end results.

Dell, there seems to be a point of confusion, here. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but indulge me...

First you say, "For this "test" I am not inserting anything on R-01." Okay. So, it sounds like you just want to test the reverb as an insert effect.

Then you say, "Whether I used PRE or PST fader on I-01/AUX1, I still have to set the R-01 level to -13.00db so that I no longer hear any actual increase in the output."

HUH? If you have nothing inserted on R-01, why are you using R-01 at all? All that will do is add extra dry signal into your mix. Which is what it sounds like you're complaining about. So -- don't do that!

There are two ways to use a reverb plug-in: as an insert effect on a patch point on an input channel (adjusing wet/dry to taste in the plugin interface), OR at a patch point on a return channel (adjusting wet/dry by setting the plug-in's control to full wet, then adjusting the relevant input channel's aux send to taste). If you choose the former (insert on input channel) you do not use the return channel at all. You leave it alone.

It sounds like you're saying you did the insert on the input channel, and then sent signal via the aux send to a return channel that has nothing patched on it. Yes -- this will most definitely add more dry signal to your mix. There is not typically any good reason to do this. Why are you doing this?

It sounds like the reason you're getting what you want when you turn the return level down to -13 is that it's finally low enough that you can't hear it. Try this: turn the channel aux send to -inf (send nothing to the return). How does that sound?

UPDATE: Just got off the phone with Dell. Dell -- now that I have a better understanding of your misunderstanding, this post seems kinda obnoxious. Not meant that way!

[mr_es335]

Dave,

Well, through the use of "an analogue line to transmit voice as electrical signals" - Dave has solved my "cranial depravity" moment, and as Ceranno said to Tanaka on Major League 3, "Is you mind clear?" - I can now say with assurity, "Clear!".

Thanks, Dave. I will give you a bunch of "Likes" for that call!

Attachment 2767

[mr_es335]

Hello,

Came across the following from Gearslutz...Wet/Dry knob on Vintage Verb

In particular...from Oden...

Anyway, in the case someone else is interested in converting inserts to auxes, you can calculate the amplitude ratio from the formula Sin (wet% x pi/2) for wet and swap the sin to cos (or wet to dry) for dry. Then convert the amp ratio to dBs (20log x amp. ratio)...

Is this accurate or true? No reason not to doubt it...but I have not idea what he is talking about! Interesting.

[MMP]

OK I finally just did what you asked. I put a -18db stereo tone on track one. The fader is at zero. I have assigned it to Aux 1, with no plugin with the aux 1 returning to output 1 with it's fader @ o .
As expected, I see exactly 6 db of gain on my output meter.

I am not sure how it is you are getting 13 db, but my system is working as expected.

Regards,

MM

[Dave Labrecque]

OK I finally just did what you asked. I put a -18db stereo tone on track one. The fader is at zero. I have assigned it to Aux 1, with no plugin with the aux 1 returning to output 1 with it's fader @ o .
As expected, I see exactly 6 db of gain on my output meter.

I am not sure how it is you are getting 13 db, but my system is working as expected.

Regards,

MM

I understood Dell to mean that it wasn't till he lowered the additional (aux-added) signal to -13 that it sounded the same as the "non-aux-added" signal. My thought was that, theoretically, any additional (aux) signal will add some level, but -13 is when he could no longer tell.

[Dave Labrecque]

Hello,

Came across the following from Gearslutz...Wet/Dry knob on Vintage Verb

In particular...from Oden...



Is this accurate or true? No reason not to doubt it...but I have not idea what he is talking about! Interesting.

Probably. You could test it by doing a phase-flip cancellation test to compare insert vs. aux. Maybe more trouble than it's worth, though.

He's getting into wave function math. Who knew our audio productions would be based in quantum mechanics?

[TomyN]

As far as I understand, he needs to reduce the AUX level by 13dB in oder to get no audible increase in the output level when activating the AUX send.
This is what you can expect here.

Tomy

[mr_es335]

Tomy,

You stated,

This is what you can expect here.

...Therefore, the -13db is to be expected then?

[Dave Labrecque]

What I did was measure what the aux loop adds in a scientific way, starting with a file with a known level. Adding the aux loop with no plugin adds exactly 6db of gain to the signal at the mix output with everything at unity. This is what I suspected from the beginning of this thread. So, -6db on the aux return should (and does) return the output to the previous level. I still don***8217;t know why Dell is getting 13db of gain from the same scenario.

This is all fine and expected, as you say, except that part about lowering the AUX 6 dB to get the previous total level. While it may appear that way and sound that way, the truth is that as long as any signal is being added (in phase, of course) to the original, there will be a summed, and, therefore, increased total output. Doubling the signal gets you a 6 dB increase, so you have to halve it to get back to where you started. That would mean bringing the AUX back down to -inf. I don't know how logarithmic math works (though I think I used to ), but I'm pretty sure someone around here could show that subtracting 6 dB from half the total signal would not be the same as subtracting 6 dB from the total signal. Actually, it's pretty intuitive, isn't it?

It sounds like you may be victim to a similar illusion as Dell: that dropping the AUX fader some small amount brings you back to zero total gain. Unless I'm just misunderstanding all this.