Harbinger V2218S subwoofer warning or, "Assumption is the mother of ****umption..."

[Donnie Frank]

Hey doods!

I had an interesting experience last night that I thought I would share.

One of my clients has purchased 3 Harbinger V2218S subs. They're active subs that cost like $400/each...amazingly cheap and actually sound decent for 400 bucks.

Worth noting, the band owns the entire P.A. and they set it up. I just show up and mix. That said...

It's not uncommon for them set up something incorrectly. So, in the interest of due diligence, in addition to line checks, I check all the speaker connections. So I'm checking the subs, and I notice that the subs sound "funny." My first instinct was to check phase, which was all correct...hmmmm... So, using the volume knobs in the built-in processors, I started isolating the subs. #1 sub in the chain sounded fine. Second sub had like half the gain and bottom rolled out. Third sub's gain was half-again. Bad cable? Bad settings? So I check the settings. Sure enough, all the subs are set to "Crossover" @ 120Hz. Hmmm.... So I changed out the XLR jumper cables for known-to-be-working cables (I always bring a bag of assorted cables just in case). Same result. Hmmm... So I move the primary feeder cable from the bottom sub to the middle sub (the subs were stacked vertically). The middle sub came to life! Okay...so then I move the feeder cable to the top sub. The top sub comes to life. So I jumper from the top to middle sub. Middle sub now has half the gain and has lost all bottom.

To summarize: All subs sound fine as the primary sub, all subsequent subs lose gain and bottom end. Maddening.

It's show time, so I just turn them all up and go.

After the gig, the first thing I do is Google the manual. To my shock and horror, it seems these POS subs are DESIGNED to operate this way on purpose! If you check the manual...

http://harbingerproaudio.com/wp-cont...ers-Manual.pdf

....page 6, you'll see in typical Chinenglish fashion, instructions regarding the "Link/Crossover" switch are vague. It seems that the "parallel XLR jacks" aren't parallel at all. It seems the user is given a CHOICE of EITHER internal processing OR linking (parallel). If you link, you don't get processing. If you process, you don't get parallel. If one wishes to LINK the subs, you have to put them in "Link mode," which turns off the crossover. In crossover mode, the parallel (output) port is HIGH-PASSED. Yes, you read that right, HIGH-PASSED. Idiotic!! THIS is why the subsequent subs in the chain sounded like crap.

I can only assume that I'll now have to handle the subwoofer processing through the digital console...which is fine. But what a weird way for an active subwoofer to handle internal processing.

I told the guys that, from now on, when they buy new gear, they either have to RTFM, or at least BRING a manual to the gig so *I* can read it. At least the subs aren't broken and I learned that I can no longer take it for granted that parallel port are indeed, parallel. Maddening. Lesson learned.

[Dave Labrecque]

Sounds like the "parallel" output is actually meant for tops (full range above sub crossover point). Maybe it's as simple as the output port labeling was translated wrong?

[Donnie Frank]

Sounds like the "parallel" output is actually meant for tops (full range above sub crossover point). Maybe it's as simple as the output port labeling was translated wrong?

It's definitely a case of "poor labeling" and "poor documentation." Turns out the crossover/link switch is to set high-pass on the XLR output jack. Your guess is as good as mine as to whether or not the switch has any effect on the internal low-pass. And the manual is no map. I guess I'll experiment next gig, as I don't own the subs. One of my clients does.

[Dave Labrecque]

It's definitely a case of "poor labeling" and "poor documentation." Turns out the crossover/link switch is to set high-pass on the XLR output jack. Your guess is as good as mine as to whether or not the switch has any effect on the internal low-pass. And the manual is no map. I guess I'll experiment next gig, as I don't own the subs. One of my clients does.

Good luck figuring it out. My QSC system keeps it simple: all the daisy-chain ins and outs are full-spectrum (KW181 sub and K12 tops), so I don't have to think. I can just throw a switch on my K12's if I want to high-pass their sound when a sub is running.

[RBIngraham]

Donnie I agree that the labeling is not intuitive and that the manual is poorly written. But correct me if I'm wrong here but you're not certain one way or the other that if putting the subs in link mode disables the crossover or not. Well there is one way to tell that should be pretty obvious, just send it full bandwidth audio and you should know right away.

Obviously it's easy to sit here and logically think about it when not in the rush to get things done. But I suspect that the low pass on the cross over is probably just always engaged and that switch just turns on and off the high pass for the output port. Who knows I could be wrong. But if it's a speaker you're going to use all the time, as I mentioned above it wouldn't be all that hard to figure it out.

I get it you're just venting. But really what do we expect from some cheap crap loudspeaker. You don't always get what you paid for, but you often do. Better brands have better manuals and less cryptic labeling.

[Donnie Frank]

Donnie I agree that the labeling is not intuitive and that the manual is poorly written. But correct me if I'm wrong here but you're not certain one way or the other that if putting the subs in link mode disables the crossover or not. Well there is one way to tell that should be pretty obvious, just send it full bandwidth audio and you should know right away.

You're absolutely correct. I conceded that I would do this exact test in another one of the comments.

Obviously it's easy to sit here and logically think about it when not in the rush to get things done.

Exactly. As you can imagine, the first thing I checked were the settings. To me, being set in "Crossover" mode seemed right. So then my second thought was "bad cable." When replacing the cables failed, I went back to the backplate. It was at this point that the labeling became not just unintuitive, but counter-intuitive. In my mind "link" was "full range," and "Crossover" was, well, a low-pass on the sub. Now that I know better, next gig, when I'm not trouble-shooting 20 minutes before downbeat, I'll run the exact test you describe above. And you can bet I will report my findings.

But I suspect that the low pass on the cross over is probably just always engaged and that switch just turns on and off the high pass for the output port.

My suspicions exactly.

Who knows I could be wrong. But if it's a speaker you're going to use all the time, as I mentioned above it wouldn't be all that hard to figure it out.

Agreed. Piece of cake. Now that I know what I'm dealing with, how the switches work, and what to look for, it should take less than a minute to see if "Link" is full range or low-pass.

I get it you're just venting. But really what do we expect from some cheap crap loudspeaker.

Touché. To reiterate, *I* didn't buy them. My client did. And then showed up with them at a gig. Without the manual. Or knowing how they work. Was it you who coined the phrase "Combat Audio?"

You don't always get what you paid for, but you often do. Better brands have better manuals and less cryptic labeling.

To the credit of these Harbingers, for 400 bucks each, stacked 3-high, they kick butt pretty good. I was able to easily fill the room with enough bottom for a live rock band. That's extremely impressive considering their size, weight and price point. When all this is done, I may even pick up one or two for myself. I love my JBL SRX718s subs coupled with my QSC PLX3602's, but the days of passive speakers are fading quickly. I've already invested in K12's so my JBL SRX712m's are collecting dust. At one point I had 8 of them. I was able to sell 4 on craigslist @ $600/each, which is about what I paid for them used via eBay. But I digress...

I may even do a full video review. To date, all I can find are cell phone-ish videos done by DJ's. LOL...DJ's should NOT review pro gear. I love how they hold their cell phone up to the sub and proclaim, "Listen to all that bass." Hilarious...but I digress again....

Good night.

D

[Donnie Frank]

Good luck figuring it out. My QSC system keeps it simple: all the daisy-chain ins and outs are full-spectrum (KW181 sub and K12 tops), so I don't have to think. I can just throw a switch on my K12's if I want to high-pass their sound when a sub is running.

Touché. I love the QSC offerings. And yes, their backplates are very intuitive.

D

[Dave Labrecque]

Touché. I love the QSC offerings. And yes, their backplates are very intuitive.

D

FWIW -- I hope I didn't "sound" sarcastic. I really meant "good luck."

[cgrafx]

Hey doods!

I had an interesting experience last night that I thought I would share.

One of my clients has purchased 3 Harbinger V2218S subs. They're active subs that cost like $400/each...amazingly cheap and actually sound decent for 400 bucks.

Worth noting, the band owns the entire P.A. and they set it up. I just show up and mix. That said...

It's not uncommon for them set up something incorrectly. So, in the interest of due diligence, in addition to line checks, I check all the speaker connections. So I'm checking the subs, and I notice that the subs sound "funny." My first instinct was to check phase, which was all correct...hmmmm... So, using the volume knobs in the built-in processors, I started isolating the subs. #1 sub in the chain sounded fine. Second sub had like half the gain and bottom rolled out. Third sub's gain was half-again. Bad cable? Bad settings? So I check the settings. Sure enough, all the subs are set to "Crossover" @ 120Hz. Hmmm.... So I changed out the XLR jumper cables for known-to-be-working cables (I always bring a bag of assorted cables just in case). Same result. Hmmm... So I move the primary feeder cable from the bottom sub to the middle sub (the subs were stacked vertically). The middle sub came to life! Okay...so then I move the feeder cable to the top sub. The top sub comes to life. So I jumper from the top to middle sub. Middle sub now has half the gain and has lost all bottom.

To summarize: All subs sound fine as the primary sub, all subsequent subs lose gain and bottom end. Maddening.

It's show time, so I just turn them all up and go.

After the gig, the first thing I do is Google the manual. To my shock and horror, it seems these POS subs are DESIGNED to operate this way on purpose! If you check the manual...

http://harbingerproaudio.com/wp-cont...ers-Manual.pdf

....page 6, you'll see in typical Chinenglish fashion, instructions regarding the "Link/Crossover" switch are vague. It seems that the "parallel XLR jacks" aren't parallel at all. It seems the user is given a CHOICE of EITHER internal processing OR linking (parallel). If you link, you don't get processing. If you process, you don't get parallel. If one wishes to LINK the subs, you have to put them in "Link mode," which turns off the crossover. In crossover mode, the parallel (output) port is HIGH-PASSED. Yes, you read that right, HIGH-PASSED. Idiotic!! THIS is why the subsequent subs in the chain sounded like crap.

I can only assume that I'll now have to handle the subwoofer processing through the digital console...which is fine. But what a weird way for an active subwoofer to handle internal processing.

I told the guys that, from now on, when they buy new gear, they either have to RTFM, or at least BRING a manual to the gig so *I* can read it. At least the subs aren't broken and I learned that I can no longer take it for granted that parallel port are indeed, parallel. Maddening. Lesson learned.

As suggested by Dave L, they are designed that way on purpose. Its intended to provide a feed to the tops. Single cable to the SUB with a built-in x-over and the feed to the top from the output of the X-over high-passed for the tops.

This is in fact a very common setup.

From the website features: Selectable full-range link or high-pass XLR outputs

Its unclear from the manual if the x-over is always engaged for the sub, but my guess is that it is. So to chain multiple subs, you'd set the switch to link and connect up as many subs as you wish. If you want to then send the x-over high-pass to to your powered tops, you'd set the last sub in the chain to cross-over and continue from there.

[operationwhat]

Checked the manual,

What I saw at first is that you should connect your top speakers first....
and just after that you take a line from the top L or R and set the sub in LINK mode,
from where you can add more subs. If you put it to crossover more, on outputs you'll
get a highpassed signal with a cut at 90 or 120Hz.