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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Albuquerque, N.M.
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    1,098

    Default Making 15's sound like 12's...

    Hey doods!

    I'm sure some of you can related to sitting at a console for a casual gig, just to find out that the mains are old school 15" drivers (instead of 12" drivers). I cringe whenever I see this because I quite honestly hate the way they sounds. Without getting too deep into it, I honestly just want to know what E.Q. curve some of you more seasoned guys are using to "de-15-ize" a P.A.? I love the clarity and midrange of 12" drivers, and hate the muddiness of 15" drivers. I know nothing can fix this, but I'd like to minimize it. Assuming fixing 15" driver audio is even possible, please share your settings.

    UGH....

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    P.S. That's not me at the console.
    DF

    http://soundaddy.com

    Intel DG965OT Motherboard (11/17/08) - Intel P4 LGA-775 651 (Cedar Mill) 3.4GHz CPU
    2.0GB 800Mhz RAM - 40GB Intel X25-V SSD - 500GB SATA "Spinner"

    RME HDSP 9652 (x2 - 1 spare) - Behringer ADA8000 (x5 - 2 spares)
    CM MotorMix (x3 - Host system) - Behringer BCF-2000 (Remote system)


  2. #2

    Default Re: Making 15's sound like 12's...

    I wish I had a "combat audio" answer for you. Closest I got is, for a while I had a pair of Peavey PR-15s. I also had a Behringer "feedback destroyer" equalizer which is programmable via midi. I used a freeware application called REW that can, among other things, take measurements on speakers and program certain equalizers. I took the setup to the gym at my church and did the readings and programming, storing the settings in the equalizer (you do this once, and reuse as needed). What I did was correct only for the drivers, not the room (this is why I needed a big space, so the system could be set to "ignore" the room reflections). I got a significant improvement in the sound, smoother and more even than the uncorrected speakers.

    The limitation of this method is you need some "quiet time alone" with a known speaker set to "shoot" the drivers. Of course, if you get lucky, maybe you can borrow representative sets of the "usual suspects" that might show up with a band, and then just load the right correction curve for the given model of speakers at the gig.
    Cary B. Cornett
    aka "Puzzler"
    www.chinesepuzzlerecording.com

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    995

    Default Re: Making 15's sound like 12's...

    Quote Originally Posted by Donnie Frank View Post
    Hey doods!

    I'm sure some of you can related to sitting at a console for a casual gig, just to find out that the mains are old school 15" drivers (instead of 12" drivers). I cringe whenever I see this because I quite honestly hate the way they sounds. Without getting too deep into it, I honestly just want to know what E.Q. curve some of you more seasoned guys are using to "de-15-ize" a P.A.? I love the clarity and midrange of 12" drivers, and hate the muddiness of 15" drivers. I know nothing can fix this, but I'd like to minimize it. Assuming fixing 15" driver audio is even possible, please share your settings.

    UGH....

    Name:  Capture.jpg
Views: 129
Size:  86.6 KB

    P.S. That's not me at the console.
    Your making a generalization about the size of the speaker components which certainly can have an impact on the sound vs the actual speaker design which absolutely has an impact on the sound. I've got speakers with 12" drivers (EAW LA212) and speakers with 15" drivers (EAW LA215) that sound pretty much identical, except the 15" moves more air and can handle lower frequency content more efficiently.

    There is no EQ curve for 15" drivers. Its 100% dependent on the complete speaker cabinet design and every design is different.
    ---------------------------------------
    Philip G.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Albuquerque, N.M.
    Posts
    1,098

    Default Re: Making 15's sound like 12's...

    Quote Originally Posted by cgrafx View Post
    Your making a generalization about the size of the speaker components which certainly can have an impact on the sound vs the actual speaker design which absolutely has an impact on the sound. I've got speakers with 12" drivers (EAW LA212) and speakers with 15" drivers (EAW LA215) that sound pretty much identical, except the 15" moves more air and can handle lower frequency content more efficiently.

    There is no EQ curve for 15" drivers. Its 100% dependent on the complete speaker cabinet design and every design is different.
    Touché. I just thought I'd ask. My general observation has been that there is a definite difference between 12" cabinets vs. 15" cabinets. As you pointed out, this speaker design is also part of the equation. The setup in the photo dons two 15's, which just sounded like crap to me. In all honesty, I think there were other issues, too. Too much to get into here. I can tell you that it's pretty typical for amateurs to throw a loudness curve on the GEQ, and that's exactly what this system sounded like. It was a digital console, so I was unable to see how the engineer had the system E.Q.'d, but that's certainly what it sounded like.

    I guess I could simply employ a pink noise generator, but I've never been a fan of those. Perhaps I could A/B a 12 and 15 cabinet with a PNG and an RTA to find my answer. But I don't own any 15's.

    Fortunately, 15" speakers don't come up too often. And I usually bring my K12's to any show I'm unsure of so I can either amend or replace their mains (fit in the back of my Civic).

    In the category of, "It can't hurt to ask...." I just thought I'd see if there were some kind of "magic key" you guys were using.

    Thanx for the reply.
    DF

    http://soundaddy.com

    Intel DG965OT Motherboard (11/17/08) - Intel P4 LGA-775 651 (Cedar Mill) 3.4GHz CPU
    2.0GB 800Mhz RAM - 40GB Intel X25-V SSD - 500GB SATA "Spinner"

    RME HDSP 9652 (x2 - 1 spare) - Behringer ADA8000 (x5 - 2 spares)
    CM MotorMix (x3 - Host system) - Behringer BCF-2000 (Remote system)


  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Sidney B.C, Canada
    Posts
    937

    Default Re: Making 15's sound like 12's...

    I'm not sure an RTA will give you the result you want. An RTA does not take into account Time. It only shows you the AMOUNT of acoustic energy at a specific frequency. With an analyzer that produces an FFT (Fast Fourier Theorum) amplitude trace....you eliminate all the reflections the walls and ceilings produce that add to an RTA's signal trace.

    SMAART, SATLive, SYSTune...and even REW will do that for you.

    For what it's worth....I use a set of Yorkville EF15P's for my front end most of the time. They sound really good. I prefer them over a pair of 12's that I generally use for smaller gigs.
    -SAC,SAWStudioLite,Midi Workshop,SATLive, Reaper
    -SAC Host (24 channel): Various Laptops via Digiface into APPSYS Adat extenders into (3) ADA8000,(2) BCF2000 controllers, 1x64 resolution
    -SAC Host (32 Channel): Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 3.0Ghz , 4 Gig DDR/800mz RAM, ASUS PK5PL-CM MotherBd,XP Pro SP3, RME Raydat, (4) ADA8000's
    -SAC Remote: Various Tablets via AMPED Router
    -SAW Host : Asus Laptop, i7 12g RAM

  6. #6

    Default Re: Making 15's sound like 12's...

    The problem with an RTA is that it cannot separate the effect of the drivers from the effect of the room. What you have said you want to correct is a driver problem.
    Cary B. Cornett
    aka "Puzzler"
    www.chinesepuzzlerecording.com

  7. Default Re: Making 15's sound like 12's...

    Different strokes I guess, but I actually prefer a 15" mid range because they allow me to cross my subs lower or use my subs from an aux send. I like my top cabinets to be 'full range' down to about 80Hz and have the sub move air with everything below that.

    These days everything is line array with small speakers, they work and they do give you that 200Hz warmth but there is still something to be said for big drivers and big iron.

    I just did a show last month with an old school Meyer flown rig with 15's in the mid range, it was great, didn't have to carve out those nasty high mid frequencies nearly as much as I do with smaller speakers. The tops were nice, warm, punchy, weighty - and I didn't miss looking up and seeing that skinny vertical line of cabinets either.

    1000 violins will never sound like a cello and well, I guess I prefer cellos to violins. I've got no problems with people who like violins as long as they aren't too loud...

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