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  1. #1

    Default OT: UAD Lexicon 224 wet signal heavy on the right

    Is this normal? The levels show as balanced, but perception-wise, it's heavy right channel for almost all the algos. I know that delayed signals arriving to the right ear before the left ear can shift the stereo image to the right, but other reverb plugs (and units) I use don't seem to favor the right side perception-wise. Anybody know what this is about? Is it just the way the 224 is?

    I centered the dry source (mono) signal in the stereo field, so I know the speakers are at the same volume.

    When I try pushing the output balance to the left, it never sounds right. It never sounds like an equally-weighted stereo image. My guess is that there's such disperately composed content in each channel that there's no way to make them sound "equivalent."

    Check out a sample. Meters are more-or-less balanced-looking, yet here's how it sounds.

    Several of the algos are sampled, here. Note that the fourth one, Chamber, is the only one that's not heavy-right sounding, and is even slightly heavy-left sounding.

    Last edited by Dave Labrecque; 03-23-2019 at 12:30 PM.
    Dave "it aint the heat, it's the humidity" Labrecque
    Becket, Massachusetts

  2. #2

    Default Re: OT: UAD Lexicon 224 wet signal heavy on the right

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Labrecque View Post
    ...

    Check out a sample. Meters are more-or-less balanced-looking, yet here's how it sounds...

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/ck42duyoea...dness.mp3?dl=1
    ...
    This link is not working....... Maybe it's not uploaded all the way yet?
    SAW/SAC - finally retired a P4/2gHz after ten great years! Burnin' rubber in 2015 with an Intel Core2 Duo e4700/2.6GHz and the trusty RME Digiface/PCI pack.

    2013 Iowa City JazzFest sets recorded/mixed in SAW with SAC as a front-end mixer for live streaming radio!
    Dr Lonnie Smith Trio w/Jonathan Kreisberg on guitar
    Pharoah Sanders Quartet
    Fred Hersch Trio

    These are post mix sets to single camera video (by Rich Rauch).

  3. #3

    Default Re: OT: UAD Lexicon 224 wet signal heavy on the right

    Quote Originally Posted by UpTilDawn View Post
    This link is not working....... Maybe it's not uploaded all the way yet?
    Sorry, my bad. Try the new link, above, please.
    Dave "it aint the heat, it's the humidity" Labrecque
    Becket, Massachusetts

  4. #4

    Default Re: OT: UAD Lexicon 224 wet signal heavy on the right

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Labrecque View Post
    Is this normal? The levels show as balanced, but perception-wise, it's heavy right channel for almost all the algos. I know that delayed signals arriving to the right ear before the left ear can shift the stereo image to the right, but other reverb plugs (and units) I use don't seem to favor the right side perception-wise. Anybody know what this is about? Is it just the way the 224 is?

    I centered the dry source (mono) signal in the stereo field, so I know the speakers are at the same volume.

    When I try pushing the output balance to the left, it never sounds right. It never sounds like an equally-weighted stereo image. My guess is that there's such disperately composed content in each channel that there's no way to make them sound "equivalent."

    Check out a sample. Meters are more-or-less balanced-looking, yet here's how it sounds.

    Several of the algos are sampled, here. Note that the fourth one, Chamber, is the only one that's not heavy-right sounding, and is even slightly heavy-left sounding.

    I agree almost completely with you, Dave. Even with headphones, most are slightly right-weighted, with the wettest/furthest away, being slightly left of center. I personally think that the one after that is maybe the most centered of the bunch (second from the end, I think).
    SAW/SAC - finally retired a P4/2gHz after ten great years! Burnin' rubber in 2015 with an Intel Core2 Duo e4700/2.6GHz and the trusty RME Digiface/PCI pack.

    2013 Iowa City JazzFest sets recorded/mixed in SAW with SAC as a front-end mixer for live streaming radio!
    Dr Lonnie Smith Trio w/Jonathan Kreisberg on guitar
    Pharoah Sanders Quartet
    Fred Hersch Trio

    These are post mix sets to single camera video (by Rich Rauch).

  5. #5

    Default Re: OT: UAD Lexicon 224 wet signal heavy on the right

    Does it help to pan the Return a little left to balance out the results.

    Bob L

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Toronto Canada
    Posts
    2,779

    Default Re: OT: UAD Lexicon 224 wet signal heavy on the right

    Are you running it in a send-return scenario - mix at 100% wet? If so, have you tried it as an insert in a stereo channel to see if it acts the same way?


  7. #7

    Default Re: OT: UAD Lexicon 224 wet signal heavy on the right

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob L View Post
    Does it help to pan the Return a little left to balance out the results.

    Bob L
    Kinda, but not really. Left and right still sound way different from each other. You can try it yourself, I think, by doing it with the sound file I uploaded. See what you think. I'd be interested to hear your impression, Bob.

    I might "suspend my disbelief" on this if, maybe, one or two algo was like this. But almost all of them? There are a couple more I didn't include that are also heavy-right-sounding. To my ear only one of the eight, total, isn't heavy on the right side.

    It sounds to me like, maybe, it's the early reflections that are mostly on the right side, and that's what's giving it that right-side-heavy feel. Even as I push the balance to the left, it's like the early reflections stay on the right as long as they can, and by the time I get them "balanced" (which never really happens), there's no reverb tail left standing on the right -- it's all on the left.
    Last edited by Dave Labrecque; 03-24-2019 at 02:30 PM.
    Dave "it aint the heat, it's the humidity" Labrecque
    Becket, Massachusetts

  8. #8

    Default Re: OT: UAD Lexicon 224 wet signal heavy on the right

    Quote Originally Posted by Naturally Digital View Post
    Are you running it in a send-return scenario - mix at 100% wet? If so, have you tried it as an insert in a stereo channel to see if it acts the same way?
    Yes and yes. Same thing in both cases.

    Anyone else have this plug? Care to give it a stereo wet test?
    Dave "it aint the heat, it's the humidity" Labrecque
    Becket, Massachusetts

  9. #9

    Default Re: OT: UAD Lexicon 224 wet signal heavy on the right

    I thought I was on to something when I noticed that the unit and plugin have four outputs (switchable, a pair at a time, for the plugin), and the pairs are arranged oddly; but the more I read, the less I'm sure this could be a factor.

    From the manual:

    Inputs & Outputs

    The Lexicon 224 hardware has two inputs (see Mono/Stereo below), and four discrete outputs, labeled as A, B, C, and D. Outputs A and C were designed to be used as the main stereo left/right outputs. The other two outputs, B and D, are implemented in some programs for use as quadraphonic reverb
    .The UAD Lexicon 224 fully models the individual sonics of all four outputs when available in the program algorithm. The alternate B and D outputs are available via the Rear Outs control.

    Mono/Stereo Operation

    The Lexicon 224 hardware has dual channel inputs (left and right) and is a true stereo processor. Like the hardware, when the Lexicon 224 plug-in is used in a stereo-in/stereo out configuration, the left and right channel signals are both processed
    .When used in a mono-in/stereo out configuration, the mono input is sent to both channels of the stereo processor. When configured as mono-in/mono-out (MIMO), output A is used exclusively except in programs 2, 4, and 9, where outputs A and C are summed into one monophonic signal. This implementation is recommended in the original hardware manual. If Rear Outs is enabled in MIMO mode, outputs B and D are used instead of A and C. See MIMO Program Outputs for a list of outputs used with each program in this configuration.

    Rear Outs

    The Rear Outs control is available to select the alternate pair when the algorithm has alternate sonics at outputs B and D. See Inputs & Outputs for an overview of the hardware implementation.

    Rear Outs Notes

    >The left/right outputs of the plug-in always reflect hardware outputs A and C respectively when Rear Outsisinactive, and outputs B and D respectively when Rear Outs is active.
    >Outputs A and C are recommended for stereo use (the rear outs are generally not used in typical applications).
    >Outputs A and C are identical to D and B respectively in the following programs: P2 Vocal Plate A, P5 Percussion Plate A, P8 Constant Density Plate A, and P9 Chorus A. Consequently, the Rear Outs control effectively swaps the left/
    rightout-puts in these programs.

    My assumption is that these A/C and B/D pairs are routed to the VST plug's 1/2 outs and, therefore, to the host's 1/2 patch connection (could it be any other way?), regardless of host. But if this is true, I have to wonder why UA is going to the trouble of explaining that A/C and B/D stuff at all. It seems irrelevant in the context of a simple stereo out of the plugin, even though it's swichable between two stereo pairs.

    Then there's the section on mono in/mono out (MIMO) functionality:

    MIMO Program Outputs

    When Lexicon 224 is used in a mono-in/mono-out (MIMO) configuration, the hardware outputs that are used for the plug-in are listed in the table below. These software assignments are per the guidelines in the original hardware manual and cannot be modified.

    ProgramOutput(s)ProgramOutput(s)


    Name:  224 MIMO.JPG
Views: 41
Size:  37.7 KB

    There appears to be no way to configure this as MIMO. Perhaps that's a function that's up to the host? I wouldn't think so, but the manual doesn't say. And, to be honest, I'm not understanding what they mean about the varioius output configs in MIMO mode.

    Interesting discovery, although maybe not that surprising: pushing the aux send pan control to the left (on either the sending channel or the master send) seems to work much better to give me a balanced reverb sound in the wet stereo field.


    Insights, anyone?

    Sure would like it if someone could confirm this with their own UA 224 plug.
    Last edited by Dave Labrecque; 03-24-2019 at 05:00 PM.
    Dave "it aint the heat, it's the humidity" Labrecque
    Becket, Massachusetts

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Central Point, Oregon
    Posts
    1,952

    Default Re: OT: UAD Lexicon 224 wet signal heavy on the right

    Well...not using it in SS, but to confirm I just tried it in PT, and the return is balanced. However I do recall some online chatter years ago about the original Lexicon 224 actually being slightly right-heavy inherently, and that UAD was consistent with that in their modeling. But I don't ever recall the plugin being noticeably out of balance in any DAW I've used it with. Not to the point of distraction, at least. And I still do use it frequently in music mixes.

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