Close

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 12
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Albuquerque, N.M.
    Posts
    1,105

    Default Outdoor shows...

    Hey doods!

    So last weekend I mixed a couple bands at an outdoor show. I do NOT own a large, outdoor P.A. system, and haven't done an outdoor show in years, so I cobbled together the following:

    * QSC K12's x4 (2 per side). Speaker drivers were meticulously aligned. Both speakers faced forward about a foot forward of the front line, perfectly parallel to one another (not splayed), with about 1/4" of space between speakers. Is this the best way to maximize efficiency?

    * JBL SRX728s x2 (3600 watts each for a total of 7200 watts) (love these subs - best ever).

    * FOH was set up roughly 60' forward of center stage.

    Now, I realize that K12's are not long-throw speakers, and therefore not really great for outdoor shows. But I have to say that I can't believe how short the throw of these beasts really are. From FOH it felt like I was pushing about 104dB, which is a comfortable mix for me. A mere 20' closer and one could hear that the speakers were louder than F***! Wow...I can't believe the difference 20' makes! Clearly, I was pushing the top boxes to their absolute limits, and, other than that 40' bubble around the front of the stage, it was NOT that loud. The Subs didn't complain at all and were run well within spec. So here I am asking for advice again...

    I don't have a huge budget, so buying a real array is not an option. Would adding another pair of K12's help? The K12's are 1000watts each, so my highbox/sub ratio was 4000:7200, which seems good to me.

    At this point I'm merely looking to get a little more out of the mains. I'd like to use existing gear or gear that's not specific to this one situation. That's why I like the K-series because they can be used for a myriad of situations. So I don't mind buying more of them.

    In the old days I used my SRX712m speakers for mains @ 1800 watts/each, and they seemed to do a lot better than the K12's. I still have 4 of those JBL's, but like the active speakers. Might have to go back to those JBL's. Just spit ballin' here....

    Thanx in advance for any help or advice.

    Regards,

    Donnie
    Last edited by Donnie Frank; 04-03-2019 at 12:58 PM.
    DF

    http://soundaddy.com

    Intel DG965OT Motherboard (11/17/08) - Intel P4 LGA-775 651 (Cedar Mill) 3.4GHz CPU
    2.0GB 800Mhz RAM - 40GB Intel X25-V SSD - 500GB SATA "Spinner"

    RME HDSP 9652 (x2 - 1 spare) - Behringer ADA8000 (x5 - 2 spares)
    CM MotorMix (x3 - Host system) - Behringer BCF-2000 (Remote system)


  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    1,167

    Default Re: Outdoor shows...

    The K12's are not designed to array. If you have to use two the likely best orientation would be approx 140 deg of coverage.

    You can't simply put more of them up and expect better results when they aren't designed to work together that way. Yes you will push a bit more air, but they still aren't going to throw long distance and the comb filtering will create dropouts all over the place. The more you put up per side the worse it will get.

    You need to have speakers that are designed to array or you'll just end up with a sonic mess throughout the audience area.

    The SRX712m is even worse from an array standpoint. They are 90 degree horizontal coverage (which just makes the area of overlap bigger and increasing the comb filtering problem).

    Just guessing from the available info about the best orientation for two K12 boxes per side is with one splayed as if it were sitting on the other like a floor monitor.

    Adding more than two per side will just make the sonic field worse.

    If your JBLs push more volume individually you might actually be better off with a single pair of the SRX712's, but again not designed to throw long distances.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by cgrafx; 04-03-2019 at 09:53 PM.
    ---------------------------------------
    Philip G.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Albuquerque, N.M.
    Posts
    1,105

    Default Re: Outdoor shows...

    Quote Originally Posted by cgrafx View Post
    The K12's are not designed to array. If you have to use two the likely best orientation would be approx 140 deg of coverage.

    You can't simply put more of them up and expect better results when they aren't designed for to work together that way. Yes you will push a bit more air, but they still aren't going to throw long distance and the comb filtering will create dropouts all over the place. The more you put up per side the worse it will get.

    You need to have speakers that are designed to array or you'll just end up with a sonic mess throughout the audience area.

    The SRX712m is even worse from an array standpoint. They are 90 degree horizontal coverage (which just makes the area of overlap bigger and increasing the comb filtering problem).

    Just guessing from the available info about the best orientation for two K12 boxes per side is with one splayed as if it were sitting on the other like a floor monitor.

    Adding more than two per side will just make the sonic field worse.

    If your JBLs push more volume individually you might actually be better off with a single pair of the SRX712's, but again not designed to throw long distances.
    Thank you for taking the time for such a well thought out reply. Good information here. I had a feeling "comb filtering" would come up. So basically I can WIDEN the throw by splaying the cabinets, but I can't really EXTEND the throw by coupling them. That makes a lot of sense.

    I have a bit of a budget, but not a huge budget. The QSC KLA12's look good...but spendy...yikes...Any recommendations?
    DF

    http://soundaddy.com

    Intel DG965OT Motherboard (11/17/08) - Intel P4 LGA-775 651 (Cedar Mill) 3.4GHz CPU
    2.0GB 800Mhz RAM - 40GB Intel X25-V SSD - 500GB SATA "Spinner"

    RME HDSP 9652 (x2 - 1 spare) - Behringer ADA8000 (x5 - 2 spares)
    CM MotorMix (x3 - Host system) - Behringer BCF-2000 (Remote system)


  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    1,167

    Default Re: Outdoor shows...

    The KLA12 is 90 x 18 degree box. Its designed to array vertically, but not horizontally. Free standing its still only two boxes otherwise you have to fly them.

    Actually line array in this context is a bit of a misnomer, as a true line array needs to be 8-10 feet in length before you really get the benefit of what a line array is designed to do, which fundamentally is even out the volume level between the front of the stage and the back of the venue.

    Two of them on sticks is really just a point source array, not a line array

    Here are some actual point source options designed as arrayable speakers

    Turbosound ta-500
    EAW KF300
    EAW KF650
    EAW LA460 (I use 4 of these - 2 per side plus a pair of EAW LA212 on sticks for front of stage coverage)
    Meyer JM-1P

    None of these are particular cheap although the EAW stuff listed is older and only available on the 2nd hand market.

    The KF650's are great speakers but really need to be driven as 3-way tops so three amps and the processor to go with them

    I run my LA460's as passive 3-way tops using the built-in x-overs over LA128 subs. (So amplification wise its a two-way system Tops and Subs)

    Everything is driven with two QSC PL380 power amps (approx 14000 watts between the two) and I can very comfortably cover 1000-1500 people.
    ---------------------------------------
    Philip G.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Albuquerque, N.M.
    Posts
    1,105

    Default Re: Outdoor shows...

    Quote Originally Posted by cgrafx View Post

    The KLA12 is 90 x 18 degree box. Its designed to array vertically, but not horizontally. Free standing its still only two boxes otherwise you have to fly them.
    Great information here. Thank you!

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't 36 of vertical coverage be enough for your average small outdoor event? In my mind, it seems like the audio is being concentrated where it needs to be, in a fairly narrow vertical band, but a wide, 90 horizontal band. I get what you're saying about the line array, which allows granular customization of each array element to facilitate even coverage over a wide seating arrangement. But for the purpose of these smaller outdoor shows, it seems 36 of vertical coverage starting @ roughly 7' above ground and shooting straight out towards the audience would work. Dare I say that even a single cabinet per side with only 18 of vertical coverage might actually work, too?? Thoughts?



    Quote Originally Posted by cgrafx View Post

    Actually line array in this context is a bit of a misnomer, as a true line array needs to be 8-10 feet in length before you really get the benefit of what a line array is designed to do, which fundamentally is even out the volume level between the front of the stage and the back of the venue.
    Yep...that makes total sense.



    Quote Originally Posted by cgrafx View Post

    Two of them on sticks is really just a point source array, not a line array.
    Copy that. It seems the KLA12's could be used as a point source array in a smaller outdoor situation.

    Thanx for the EAW recommendations. I may go the passive direction, but for now I'd like to see if I can find an active solution. Please share your thoughts.

    Regards,

    Donnie
    Last edited by Donnie Frank; 04-04-2019 at 09:48 AM.
    DF

    http://soundaddy.com

    Intel DG965OT Motherboard (11/17/08) - Intel P4 LGA-775 651 (Cedar Mill) 3.4GHz CPU
    2.0GB 800Mhz RAM - 40GB Intel X25-V SSD - 500GB SATA "Spinner"

    RME HDSP 9652 (x2 - 1 spare) - Behringer ADA8000 (x5 - 2 spares)
    CM MotorMix (x3 - Host system) - Behringer BCF-2000 (Remote system)


  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    1,167

    Default Re: Outdoor shows...

    Quote Originally Posted by Donnie Frank View Post
    Great information here. Thank you!

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't 36 of vertical coverage be enough for your average small outdoor event? In my mind, it seems like the audio is being concentrated where it needs to be, in a fairly narrow vertical band, but a wide, 90 horizontal band. I get what you're saying about the line array, which allows granular customization of each array element to facilitate even coverage over a wide seating arrangement. But for the purpose of these smaller outdoor shows, it seems 36 of vertical coverage starting @ roughly 7' above ground and shooting straight out towards the audience would work. Dare I say that even a single cabinet per side with only 18 of vertical coverage might actually work, too?? Thoughts?
    I wasn't actually commenting on the vertical coverage and yes even a single box could work for a small audience. I was really just pointing out that 2-boxes doesn't make a line array and that the array is designed to work vertically so you can put more of them up next to each other.




    Quote Originally Posted by Donnie Frank View Post
    Copy that. It seems the KLA12's could be used as a point source array in a smaller outdoor situation.

    Thanx for the EAW recommendations. I may go the passive direction, but for now I'd like to see if I can find an active solution. Please share your thoughts.

    Regards,

    Donnie
    The current manufacturing trend has been in the line-array styled boxes like the KLA12's. Lots of manufactures using this design. JBL, QSC, RFC, etc all have offerings that are perfectly usable. As to how large a show you can handle, you'd have to try them out to determine that.

    There is a lot to be said for these style of boxes. They tend to be lighter in weight, physically smaller and pretty easy to setup.

    In my circumstance the EAW LA series stuff was a good fit. They are a significant step up from QSC K8/10/12 type boxes and most of the other MI series stuff from other manufacturers. I seriously considered moving into the EAW KF650 range, but it would have made my amplification setup more complicated. The LA460 box is very similar to the KF650 but can be run fully passive on a single amp. The KF650 is either 2-way or 3-way so would at a minimum have required at least one more power amp which I didn't want to add into the mix.

    Right now my entire rig rolls in as a single rack stack (mixing console & amps on bottom and wireless gear on top). I'm running two QSC PL380s for FOH Tops/Subs and a Carvin 4-ch amp for floor wedges when needed. (Full system is two stacks per side instead of the single set shown below). I only need to run a single 4-wire speaker cable to each side of the stage and then jumper from box to box.

    System is 32 in/32 out, 5 stereo IEM mixes, 4 Floor wedge mixes, 2 wireless hand helds, 4 stereo wired XLR channels (L/R rather than balanced) for keyboards so single mic cable to each keyboard wired direct to preamps without need for a DI, and an AVB (Audio over ethernet) out that is currently setup to give me 24 of the 32 channels available as a FOH split when we play shows where we are only handling our stage mix.

    The single rack stack scales from" just wireless IEMs and mics" to "two speakers on sticks" to full the rig of "4 double 18 subs, 4 three way tops, 2 FOH infills and 4 floor wedge mixes + 5 wireless IEMs + 2 wireless mics"

    Last edited by cgrafx; 04-04-2019 at 11:45 AM.
    ---------------------------------------
    Philip G.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Maple Ridge, BC Canada
    Posts
    2,488

    Default Re: Outdoor shows...

    Philip,

    Now...now! Where are you hiding the tactile fader pack?

    PS: Wonderful work - as always, Philip. May I ask just what is the "Shure" component at the top of pole above the monitor?

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    1,167

    Default Re: Outdoor shows...

    Quote Originally Posted by mr_es335 View Post
    Philip,

    Now...now! Where are you hiding the tactile fader pack?

    PS: Wonderful work - as always, Philip. May I ask just what is the "Shure" component at the top of pole above the monitor?
    I have an x-touch extender that I haven't added to the system as I haven't had time to fully test and configure, but its planned.

    The item at the top of the pole is a directional antenna for the IEMs.
    Last edited by cgrafx; 04-04-2019 at 11:46 AM.
    ---------------------------------------
    Philip G.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Albuquerque, N.M.
    Posts
    1,105

    Default Re: Outdoor shows...

    Quote Originally Posted by cgrafx View Post

    I wasn't actually commenting on the vertical coverage and yes even a single box could work for a small audience. I was really just pointing out that 2-boxes doesn't make a line array and that the array is designed to work vertically so you can put more of them up next to each other.
    Copy that. Message received.




    Quote Originally Posted by cgrafx View Post

    The current manufacturing trend has been in the line-array styled boxes like the KLA12's. Lots of manufactures using this design. JBL, QSC, RFC, etc all have offerings that are perfectly usable. As to how large a show you can handle, you'd have to try them out to determine that.
    Again, copy that. Funny...when I started my sound company I made up my mind that I would be able to handle large shows. So I geared up for that. But the large, outdoor shows never came. Instead what came were a bevy of smaller club shows. So my equipment fits accordingly. I built this awesome amp rack that I've used like twice. Though I'm moving toward active cabinets. I still love the passive subs, and will probably stick with those for a long, long time.


    Quote Originally Posted by cgrafx View Post

    There is a lot to be said for these style of boxes. They tend to be lighter in weight, physically smaller and pretty easy to setup.
    These are the exact reasons I've gone with active speakers. But I still love my SRX728s's and SRX718s's. I have 8 drivers total and enough power to rumble any situation. Now I gotta play catch up with my top boxes. I really, really liked my SRX712m's as top boxes. Those things are loud and clear...but I got tired of trying to find power for them. 1800 watts each was a tough bill in a club with 2 circuits. The 1000 watt K12's are a little more "outlet friendly."



    Quote Originally Posted by cgrafx View Post


    I only need to run a single 4-wire speaker cable to each side of the stage and then jumper from box to box.
    My passive system was the same. I made my own speaker wire out of 4 conductor #10 S.O. cable. Damn expensive cable, but bullet-proof. The Speakon plugs barely take the #10.


    Quote Originally Posted by cgrafx View Post

    System is 32 in/32 out, 5 stereo IEM mixes, 4 Floor wedge mixes, 2 wireless hand helds, 4 stereo wired XLR channels (L/R rather than balanced) for keyboards so single mic cable to each keyboard wired direct to preamps without need for a DI, and an AVB (Audio over ethernet) out that is currently setup to give me 24 of the 32 channels available as a FOH split when we play shows where we are only handling our stage mix.
    I miss my SAC rig, too. These day, I just don't have the luxury of a FOH area or that kind of set up time. I still have the SAC rig...I really miss its features. Today's consumer level digital offerings don't hold a candle to it.



    Quote Originally Posted by cgrafx View Post

    The single rack stack scales from" just wireless IEMs and mics" to "two speakers on sticks" to full the rig of "4 double 18 subs, 4 three way tops, 2 FOH infills and 4 floor wedge mixes + 5 wireless IEMs + 2 wireless mics"

    Nice rig, man. Do you run sound full time?

    D
    DF

    http://soundaddy.com

    Intel DG965OT Motherboard (11/17/08) - Intel P4 LGA-775 651 (Cedar Mill) 3.4GHz CPU
    2.0GB 800Mhz RAM - 40GB Intel X25-V SSD - 500GB SATA "Spinner"

    RME HDSP 9652 (x2 - 1 spare) - Behringer ADA8000 (x5 - 2 spares)
    CM MotorMix (x3 - Host system) - Behringer BCF-2000 (Remote system)


  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    1,167

    Default Re: Outdoor shows...

    Quote Originally Posted by Donnie Frank View Post
    I miss my SAC rig, too. These day, I just don't have the luxury of a FOH area or that kind of set up time. I still have the SAC rig...I really miss its features. Today's consumer level digital offerings don't hold a candle to it.
    From my perspective my rig is easily just as fast if not faster to setup than any other offering. Its a little taller from a rack space point of view, but it really doesn't take up any more floor space.

    I mix from the stage since thats where I am (I'm keys and vocals). On the few occasions where I'm supplying for others or we have a sound man, we mix on a wireless tablet or laptop with a monitor and can go side stage or out front as needed. With the recent switch to the MOTU preamps with the AVB setup the AVB switch works just like a standard ethernet switch meaning I have a plug and play ethernet network already built in to the rig and can run wired rather then wireless to front of house.

    Quote Originally Posted by Donnie Frank View Post
    Nice rig, man. Do you run sound full time?
    Only on rare occasions, its mostly just for my band, but its also configured for more general purpose use. I have additional vocal and instrument channels already labeled and reserved which makes it easy if/when we add backup singers or other musicians.

    In my early days I worked with a large sound and lighting company. I've basically taken the production skills from that environment and translated it down to a smaller scale. Everything is about efficiency. Touring companies have to get in and out of a venue in as short a time as possible, and everything has to work. As many things are pre-wired and clearly labeled as possible.

    The wireless rack on top of the mixer rack is two mic cables, a power cable and DB25 connector. It lives on top of the mixing rack 90% of the time so it really moves as a single box (even in and out of the van). The only time it gets separated is when sound is supplied and we only use our IEMs and wireless mics, or occasionally I use the system for small setups with no wireless gear just the mixing console.

    Setup sequence is very simple:
    1. set the rack
    2. remove covers
    3. plug in the DB25, power and mic cables
    4. screw in the pole to hold the monitor and wireless antenna.
    5. plug in the monitor attach the wireless antenna (its on a quick disconnect mic adapter)
    6. attach 2 wireless antenna cables for the IEM.
    7. plug in the snake - this is now a single multi-pin connector (we rarely use the front snake, so just the single 16 channel snake to the back line next to the drums.)
    8. power up the rack (takes about 10 seconds for everything to come up)
    9. launch SAC (everything is already defaulted including the SAC remote configuration)
    10. if we want to record Launch Saw Studio and SAC Link (configs are defaulted so just control arm tracks and I'm ready to record)

    This takes about 5 minutes. Really the only issue is moving in and out of the venue, but its on wheels so as long as it doesn't have to go up stairs its really simple. I actually load and unload my van by myself most of the time. Ramps are of coarse very important to make this work.

    The rest is just the usual stuff which everybody has to do. Wire speakers, plug in microphones.

    Most of the drum mics are clip ons (sennheiser E604s) so I don't have to carry a lot of mic stands (just the kick and overheads if we use them)

    My snakes are completely labeled with both channel numbers and what goes in them. Kick, snare, voc mic, etc.

    Its stupid simple to wire and pretty much anybody can get stuff plugged in to the correct spot.

    Of coarse its taken me about 15 years of evolution to get to this point, but I'd seriously challenge anybody to get in and setup any faster with a x32 setup, and I have so much more capability at my finger tips.

    No disrespect to behringer and similar gear. Also no question that for the general user the behringer type setups are much easier to plug and play out of the box.

    Its just that a finely tuned SAC rig isn't any more complicated, its still a mixer with ins and outs, it just takes more effort up front to package it into an efficient configuration.

    Maybe I should do a system setup video.
    Last edited by cgrafx; 04-04-2019 at 10:57 PM.
    ---------------------------------------
    Philip G.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •