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  1. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
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    Maple Ridge, BC Canada
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    2,488

    Default Re: SAC SYSTEM BUILD QUESTIONS

    Warren,

    Dell awhile back you made a post about trying to get others to populate info on working systems. I hope in the future it come to pass, it would have helped.
    ... The shelf-life of most heard ware now-a-days would make a list such as this worthwhile. Within ninety days of obtaining my ASUS Z170-P is was already being replaced by something "better". It was not that I was looking for something else - it was just interesting to discover this.

    Somewhere within the past few months, Bob had mentioned that pretty much any current hardware will run SAW or SAW well...I am just not able to fid that posting.

  2. #12

    Default Re: SAC SYSTEM BUILD QUESTIONS

    I certianly may be wrong but it appears that at least the first two MB's you mentioned would not accept the RME HDSP9652 PCI cards.


    I spec-ed a couple M.2 SSD drives to fix the mistake I made in my first attempt. Thanks for pointing that out.
    Also decided to just get another 4U Case and 750W power supply. That way I can reconfigure my old system (Dual Zeon) as a video server.
    It was probably better suited for that anyway. I feel I made a mistake back when I pickup the old system and it took alot of massaging to get it to work at all.

    Lord willing the new one will run 40 ch with plugins and low latency
    Thanks again

    Warren
    Warren @ The Masters Tracks

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    1,167

    Default Re: SAC SYSTEM BUILD QUESTIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Warren View Post
    I certianly may be wrong but it appears that at least the first two MB's you mentioned would not accept the RME HDSP9652 PCI cards.
    Warren
    Yes, sorry didn't mean those where alternative MB for you, just that there are plenty of MB with the Intel LAN chips.

    Hope all works well when you get all the pieces together.

    pg
    ---------------------------------------
    Philip G.

  4. #14

    Default Re: SAC SYSTEM BUILD QUESTIONS

    On using an m.2 drive for tracking:

    I think the fastest, m.2 SSD out there right now (which is also to say the fastest SSD) is a Samsung 970 EVOPlus (which comes with a 5 year limited warranty, by the way...). According to Samsung, it has a max write speed of 3,300 MB/s. That is - 3.3 billion bytes per second. Meanwhile recording one track at 96,000 samples per second, and 24 bits (3 bytes) per sample, in stereo for one second (96,000 X 3 X 2) uses 576,000 bytes. If you divide the storage required per track per second into the max storage rate possible per second of the drive (3.3 billion / 576,000)... the result is a solid 5,529 simultaneous tracks. The drive at max is capable of keeping up with the recording requirement of over 5,000 simultaneous tracks at a sample rate that's probably at least double what you actually use.

    Maybe they're just bragging for marketing purposes though? Let's be conservative and suppose that, in the real world, it could only do 2,500 simultaneous tracks. That's still total overkill for a recording system that maxes out at a little over a hundred - and you probably never track even that many. If you do the same assessment of your intended 860 EVO drive (530 MB/s max write) to see whether it could handle the throughput easily ...it could (only ~250 simultaneous tracks though). The truth is that even a Winchester drive is more than capable enough for anything your recording might throw at it.

    There are other advantages to SSD drives though. You can drop them and they won't crash - handy if you move the computer to gigs. They make zero noise - handy if you record. They produce less heat than spinning platters - handy if your environment isn't always cool. They boot Windows practically instantly. And, in the case of the m.2 variety, they have a very low profile and won't interfere with the air flow inside your case. And - the clincher - they've become incredibly cheap too. A 500 GB 970 EVOPlus m.2 drive is under $140 now. A terrabyte one is under $250. Lesser m.2 SSDs cost even less than that but are still far faster than any Winchester, or SATA SSD, drive - which are both already plenty fast enough for your purpose themselves.

    So: I'm totally unconvinced that the application throughput requires an m.2 drive - but I think you should get one anyway. The savings accomplished by cheaping out just aren't worth it anymore. Ultra-fast m.2 SSD's are way too inexpensive and reliable to pass up. Why not have the best just on GP?

  5. #15

    Default Re: SAC SYSTEM BUILD QUESTIONS

    Phillip - Did you ever finish testing your 64 bit system? If so - what were your results?

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    1,167

    Default Re: SAC SYSTEM BUILD QUESTIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by John Ludlow View Post
    On using an m.2 drive for tracking:

    I think the fastest, m.2 SSD out there right now (which is also to say the fastest SSD) is a Samsung 970 EVOPlus (which comes with a 5 year limited warranty, by the way...). According to Samsung, it has a max write speed of 3,300 MB/s. That is - 3.3 billion bytes per second. Meanwhile recording one track at 96,000 samples per second, and 24 bits (3 bytes) per sample, in stereo for one second (96,000 X 3 X 2) uses 576,000 bytes. If you divide the storage required per track per second into the max storage rate possible per second of the drive (3.3 billion / 576,000)... the result is a solid 5,529 simultaneous tracks. The drive at max is capable of keeping up with the recording requirement of over 5,000 simultaneous tracks at a sample rate that's probably at least double what you actually use.

    Maybe they're just bragging for marketing purposes though? Let's be conservative and suppose that, in the real world, it could only do 2,500 simultaneous tracks. That's still total overkill for a recording system that maxes out at a little over a hundred - and you probably never track even that many. If you do the same assessment of your intended 860 EVO drive (530 MB/s max write) to see whether it could handle the throughput easily ...it could (only ~250 simultaneous tracks though). The truth is that even a Winchester drive is more than capable enough for anything your recording might throw at it.

    There are other advantages to SSD drives though. You can drop them and they won't crash - handy if you move the computer to gigs. They make zero noise - handy if you record. They produce less heat than spinning platters - handy if your environment isn't always cool. They boot Windows practically instantly. And, in the case of the m.2 variety, they have a very low profile and won't interfere with the air flow inside your case. And - the clincher - they've become incredibly cheap too. A 500 GB 970 EVOPlus m.2 drive is under $140 now. A terrabyte one is under $250. Lesser m.2 SSDs cost even less than that but are still far faster than any Winchester, or SATA SSD, drive - which are both already plenty fast enough for your purpose themselves.

    So: I'm totally unconvinced that the application throughput requires an m.2 drive - but I think you should get one anyway. The savings accomplished by cheaping out just aren't worth it anymore. Ultra-fast m.2 SSD's are way too inexpensive and reliable to pass up. Why not have the best just on GP?
    Yes, M.2 drives would be perfectly fine for tracking, but they are physically screw attached to the motherboard, so not practical from an easy to remove standpoint. SATA SSDs or even traditional spinners can be put into removable card cages, making them easy to replace when you want to archive or swap drives.
    ---------------------------------------
    Philip G.

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    1,167

    Default Re: SAC SYSTEM BUILD QUESTIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by John Ludlow View Post
    Phillip - Did you ever finish testing your 64 bit system? If so - what were your results?
    I'm still testing the motherboard.

    Was trying to get thunderbolt running on the one I'm currently testing but couldn't get the thunderbolt card to work. Unfortunately for some reason thunderbolt is hard to find on m-ATA sized motherboards.

    I hadn't decided if I wanted to spring for a new MB, processor and RAM.

    The current system running with a rayDAT card has been stable at 1x32, at least as long as the screen saver doesn't kick in.

    I was going to do some benchmarking before I switch to the latest SAW/SAC 64 release to see if there is a testable improvement in performance (given the recent apparent discoveries by bob relating to shared memory).

    I also haven't been in a rush, as this system is intended to replace my live performance rig and I need to have all pieces in place before making the switch.

    Meaning all new 64-bit plug-ins. I've been testing various VST effects to determine which ones I'll be switching to. Nothing to report back on with the VST's as yet, but will definitely write up my findings when I'm done.
    Last edited by cgrafx; 06-21-2019 at 10:52 PM.
    ---------------------------------------
    Philip G.

  8. #18

    Default Re: SAC SYSTEM BUILD QUESTIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by cgrafx View Post
    Yes, M.2 drives would be perfectly fine for tracking, but they are physically screw attached to the motherboard, so not practical from an easy to remove standpoint. SATA SSDs or even traditional spinners can be put into removable card cages, making them easy to replace when you want to archive or swap drives.
    That's true. Still - a terrabyte of storage is sufficient for over 15 hours of 32 track recording at 96/24 - twice that at 48/24. And I think that most motherboards that do m.2 have capacity for 2 of them. That would be 60, 32 track, hours at 48/24. That feels like a lot to me - but maybe it isn't if you do it professionally. And, as previously pointed out, it is total overkill from a throughput standpoint if there is any advantage in doing it more conventionally.

  9. #19

    Default Re: SAC SYSTEM BUILD QUESTIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by cgrafx View Post
    I'm still testing the motherboard.

    Was trying to get thunderbolt running on the one I'm currently testing but couldn't get the thunderbolt card to work. Unfortunately for some reason thunderbolt is hard to find on m-ATA sized motherboards.

    I hadn't decided if I wanted to spring for a new MB, processor and RAM.

    The current system running with a rayDAT card has been stable at 1x32, at least as long as the screen saver doesn't kick in.

    I was going to do some benchmarking before I switch to the latest SAW/SAC 64 release to see if there is a testable improvement in performance (given the recent apparent discoveries by bob relating to shared memory).

    I also haven't been in a rush, as this system is intended to replace my live performance rig and I need to have all pieces in place before making the switch.

    Meaning all new 64-bit plug-ins. I've been testing various VST effects to determine which ones I'll be switching to. Nothing to report back on with the VST's as yet, but will definitely write up my findings when I'm done.
    I'm especially interested in your experience with Thunderbolt at the moment. When you say you couldn't get the Thunderbolt card to work - do you mean for anything - or specifically for DAW? Also, I'm curious as to which Thunderbolt converters you are hoping it will work with? The UFX+ is very attractive to me, but I don't want to buy a brand new raft full of problems (I already have a Firewire card that is problematic in Windows 10/64 LTSC...). I wonder if UFX+ would work reliably using USB 3? Five gigabits is still pretty speedy and USB 3 seems ubiquitous in new MBs. It seems odd that RME didn't choose to support USB 3.1 (10 gigabits - equivalent to Thunderbolt) rather than just USB 3. But, in theory at least, 5 Gbs should be way more than sufficient (over a thousand tracks).

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    1,167

    Default Re: SAC SYSTEM BUILD QUESTIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by John Ludlow View Post
    I'm especially interested in your experience with Thunderbolt at the moment. When you say you couldn't get the Thunderbolt card to work - do you mean for anything - or specifically for DAW? Also, I'm curious as to which Thunderbolt converters you are hoping it will work with? The UFX+ is very attractive to me, but I don't want to buy a brand new raft full of problems (I already have a Firewire card that is problematic in Windows 10/64 LTSC...). I wonder if UFX+ would work reliably using USB 3? Five gigabits is still pretty speedy and USB 3 seems ubiquitous in new MBs. It seems odd that RME didn't choose to support USB 3.1 (10 gigabits - equivalent to Thunderbolt) rather than just USB 3. But, in theory at least, 5 Gbs should be way more than sufficient (over a thousand tracks).
    I couldn't get the card to work for anything. The motherboard has the correct header connector and the bios controls, but the card simply wouldn't initialize.

    Thunderbolt support wasn't explicitly listed as supported on this particular motherboard, but I figured it was worth a try since it had the external card header.

    About Interfaces - I recently made a switch from the Berhinger ADA8200s to MOTU 8Ms. In addition to ADAT they also support AVB, USB and Thunderbolt.

    I wanted to do a comparison between the RME rayDAT card and Thunderbolt connectivity and see what sort of latency differences there might be.

    From MOTU's specs I should be able to reduce the Input-to-Output latency by about 2ms using Thunderbolt. Current roundtrip latency with the existing RME/ADAT configuration is 6.5ms
    Last edited by cgrafx; 06-22-2019 at 12:15 PM.
    ---------------------------------------
    Philip G.

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