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Thread: Isolating drums

  1. #11

    Default Re: Isolating drums

    Isolating the kick from the rest of the kit takes a simple brute force approach: After setting up the ussual internal mic on the kick, and applying whatever internal damping to the heads (pillow, folded up blanket, whatever), you cover the kick all around with heavy blankets to muffle it. Front, around the shell, and back, leaving clearance for the batter to hit. You get less of the kick in everything else, and you get less leakage from the snare into the kick mic. Having tried various balances over the years, I have gravitated to a 9 mic balance: overheads, kick, top and bottom snare, hat, and one for each tom (assuming the usual 3 tom kit). For those who as why so many mics, it is because the most commonly expected rock and roll sound uses surgical EQ on each drum, taking out unwanted sounds while accenting the fundamental and the attack. Back in analog days I did this when tracking. Now I do all the EQ on playback, which means the drummer doesn't have to bang around while I get EQ settings.

    Now, if you are lucky and the drums sound just right live in the room (meaning the sound you want in the final mix), you can go with fewer mics, provided, that is, that the drummer givew you a good level balance between the drums and the cymbals. If you get a "basher" though, just mic everything and get the balance in the mix. Yes, I know some great rock records were done with fewer mics (early Zepplin), but there areother big ones that went for much more than I use (I saw an article long ago that showed the track sheets for Heart's "Magic Man", which required a 2-machine lockup for all the tracks, now a few of which were for drums). So one could argue both sides, but I don't risk it when working with a drummer who is now to me (which is most of the time). I keep my options open with multiple mics and tracks, because I don't want to be going back for a "do over".
    Cary B. Cornett
    aka "Puzzler"
    www.chinesepuzzlerecording.com

  2. #12

    Default Re: Isolating drums

    Quote Originally Posted by Cary B. Cornett View Post
    Isolating the kick from the rest of the kit takes a simple brute force approach: After setting up the ussual internal mic on the kick, and applying whatever internal damping to the heads (pillow, folded up blanket, whatever), you cover the kick all around with heavy blankets to muffle it. Front, around the shell, and back, leaving clearance for the batter to hit. You get less of the kick in everything else, and you get less leakage from the snare into the kick mic. Having tried various balances over the years, I have gravitated to a 9 mic balance: overheads, kick, top and bottom snare, hat, and one for each tom (assuming the usual 3 tom kit). For those who as why so many mics, it is because the most commonly expected rock and roll sound uses surgical EQ on each drum, taking out unwanted sounds while accenting the fundamental and the attack. Back in analog days I did this when tracking. Now I do all the EQ on playback, which means the drummer doesn't have to bang around while I get EQ settings.

    Now, if you are lucky and the drums sound just right live in the room (meaning the sound you want in the final mix), you can go with fewer mics, provided, that is, that the drummer givew you a good level balance between the drums and the cymbals. If you get a "basher" though, just mic everything and get the balance in the mix. Yes, I know some great rock records were done with fewer mics (early Zepplin), but there areother big ones that went for much more than I use (I saw an article long ago that showed the track sheets for Heart's "Magic Man", which required a 2-machine lockup for all the tracks, now a few of which were for drums). So one could argue both sides, but I don't risk it when working with a drummer who is now to me (which is most of the time). I keep my options open with multiple mics and tracks, because I don't want to be going back for a "do over".
    I use this same mic setup, with the overheads being PZMs mounted on either side of a 5'X18" barrier. I've heard that PZMs are not good overheads (from one potential client who chose not to come here because he heard I was doing that, so....?). But I've gotten some pretty good drum recordings IMHO. I've gotten some pretty bad ones too, and am the first to say the sound is created by the drummer, not me... good OR bad.
    Richard
    Green Valley Recording
    My cats have nine lives; my life has nine cats.

  3. #13

    Default Re: Isolating drums

    Are you using 4 pzms?
    (EDIT: Oh I get it, I think you meant either end not either side. So skip question - unless there really are 4.)

    On a recent thread I was waxing about the psychological effect of putting a singer in front of a storied Neumann U47. I was thinking afterward that while I don't have a U47, I can still top it, as my SM57's brothers have undoubtedly logged even more famous tracks. I didn't even realize why all of the musicians I put in front of that baby are so awed! I'm going to have to get a golden pillow to keep it on while I'm not using it.

    Back to the pzms. If you're winding up with good sound, it does not matter how little you pay for it (or, as I'd explain to my wife when a new piece of gear arrives, how much).
    Last edited by jmh; 01-26-2021 at 05:30 AM.

  4. #14

    Default Re: Isolating drums

    I had never heard of a 'PZM' microphone and I wondered what it was. Back when I first encountered SAW, I would just have to have lived with that and kept my ears open in conversations for clues thereafter. No longer. Ten minutes and Google later, I knew that Radio Shack, on license from Crown, sold them for a while back in the day - but no longer. It turns out that there is a remarkable amount of interest in this cheap piece of gear - so much so that many have made modifications to it. Very interesting. Maybe you're clueless like me. To save you the trouble of Googling it yourself (yes, that's what it's come to) here's some links:

    History:
    http://www.uneeda-audio.com/pzm/

    Mods (part way down the page):
    http://uneeda-audio.com/

    For Cary: build your own:
    https://www.instructables.com/Build-...ne-Microphone/

    And, for the rest of us, Crown still makes them:
    https://www.sweetwater.com/store/det....ds&&gclsrc=ds

  5. #15

    Default Re: Isolating drums

    Quote Originally Posted by jmh View Post
    Are you using 4 pzms?
    (EDIT: Oh I get it, I think you meant either end not either side. So skip question - unless there really are 4.)
    <SNIP>
    Back to the pzms. If you're winding up with good sound, it does not matter how little you pay for it (or, as I'd explain to my wife when a new piece of gear arrives, how much).
    I see the problem... sorry... I miss-typed. The barrier is a single piece of 1/4" plywood 25"X18", hanging above the toms. The barrier, in effect, splits the rack mounted toms. I really messed that up. Again, I apologize for the confusion. Two Crown PZMs; one attached to each side of the plywood.
    Richard
    Green Valley Recording
    My cats have nine lives; my life has nine cats.

  6. #16

    Default Re: Isolating drums

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Rupert View Post
    I see the problem... sorry... I miss-typed. The barrier is a single piece of 1/4" plywood 25"X18", hanging above the toms. The barrier, in effect, splits the rack mounted toms. I really messed that up. Again, I apologize for the confusion. Two Crown PZMs; one attached to each side of the plywood.
    I'm taking another crack at getting it (I think I'm there). The mics are quite close together with the plywood sandwiched between the backs and the plywood edge aimed between the toms. How separated is it? Are you generally using this as hard L/R?

  7. #17

    Default Re: Isolating drums

    Quote Originally Posted by jmh View Post
    I'm taking another crack at getting it (I think I'm there). The mics are quite close together with the plywood sandwiched between the backs and the plywood edge aimed between the toms. How separated is it? Are you generally using this as hard L/R?
    I thought you were describing it correctly... but "how separated is it" threw me. I'll try to be more clear. Picture a 25"X18"X1/4" piece of plywood suspended over the drums, perpendicular to the floor, dividing the rack toms. On each side of that plywood is a PZM, mounted near the top edge of the board, halfway down its top side. The whole rig hangs about 4' above the top of the toms.

    And yes, I am panning the mics hard left and right.
    Richard
    Green Valley Recording
    My cats have nine lives; my life has nine cats.

  8. #18

    Default Re: Isolating drums

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Rupert View Post
    I thought you were describing it correctly... but "how separated is it" threw me. I'll try to be more clear. Picture a 25"X18"X1/4" piece of plywood suspended over the drums, perpendicular to the floor, dividing the rack toms. On each side of that plywood is a PZM, mounted near the top edge of the board, halfway down its top side. The whole rig hangs about 4' above the top of the toms.

    And yes, I am panning the mics hard left and right.
    Got it thanks. The separation question was with regards to the results - which at 4" seems would give you pretty distinct toms (assuming the edge pointed between them). Is this rig the predominant cymbals mics too?

    I'm trying to wrap my head around how this works as lower frequencies round corners somewhat - and at the same time the board could also act as an acoustic component too. I imagine it imparts a music element of its own on things - but I suppose anything you use does...

    On one of my guitars, I have an LR Baggs pickup mounted in the soundhole. The body of the pickup's motion is supposed to capture some of the acoustic sound somehow - like the polepieces are allowed to move in relation to the voicecoil via a suspension mount. It isn't the best pickup*, but still an okay sound - and the newer models are said to sound better.

    * edit: I'm not saying it isn't a decent pickup. I think it's only been in a old ('73?) Guild D50 - which while a fantastic guitar, is darker sounding with not nearly as much soundboard movement as more contemporary dreadnoughts. It's the mechanical movement that gives the pickup its acousticy character, so I may not have experienced it in optimum conditions.
    Last edited by jmh; 02-06-2021 at 08:38 AM.

  9. #19

    Default Re: Isolating drums

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Rupert View Post
    I see the problem... sorry... I miss-typed. The barrier is a single piece of 1/4" plywood 25"X18", hanging above the toms. The barrier, in effect, splits the rack mounted toms. I really messed that up. Again, I apologize for the confusion. Two Crown PZMs; one attached to each side of the plywood.
    Richard, I'm thinking maybe I don't understand PZM mics after all. Having no experience with them but having read for just a few minutes, I was under the impression that they receive pressure wave differences via the surface they are in contact with. That left me thinking that the surface vibrates and the PZM 'hears' it. How do your two overhead PZMs differentiate between toms if they are attached to opposite sides of the same board? Or am I getting that wrong?

  10. #20
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    Default Re: Isolating drums

    Quote Originally Posted by John Ludlow View Post
    Richard, I'm thinking maybe I don't understand PZM mics after all. Having no experience with them but having read for just a few minutes, I was under the impression that they receive pressure wave differences via the surface they are in contact with. That left me thinking that the surface vibrates and the PZM 'hears' it. How do your two overhead PZMs differentiate between toms if they are attached to opposite sides of the same board? Or am I getting that wrong?
    https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/pz...by-sweetwater/
    Last edited by cgrafx; 02-06-2021 at 11:28 AM.
    ---------------------------------------
    Philip G.

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