OT: Bob, why are you using ADA8000s?

[alchemist]

Bob,

Not a technical question here, but after hearing some of your work
and being impressed by it, I began to wonder about your recording
philosophy.

You don't seem to place a lot of importance on the analog front end and
digital conversion part of the equation and you still get great sounds. This isn't the norm.
Engineers seem to be obsessed about their gear, about the
clarity, "definition", "punchyness", "3d soundstage" of their preamplifiers.
They obsess about the "wide soundstage" given by high-ticket digital
converters and so on.

You use Behringer ADA8000s. An item considered to be "low-end" even by
some "low-end" engineers.

What really strikes me, is that you spent a lot of years creating an
awesome-sounding audio engine. You have spent a lot of time implementing
the equalization algorithms in your software. You worried about noise floor,
for example (I read that in one of your posts, I believe). You ended up with
great sounding equalizers and compressors...

...and yet you chose to use $15/channel preamplifiers as a front end for
your recordings. You have even said you record at 44.1k and 16 bits.

I ask the following as sincere questions, I'm in no way critizicing your methods.
I just was thinking ... hey, what if instead of breaking my neck trying to
get enough money to get some Mytek converters ($3000) and some
Millenia preamps I instead get some ADA8000s and save a LOT of cash. I
mean, would I lose a lot? I've heard your work, and I know that I could get
great results with the ADA8000.

You have worked in large studios. Big consoles. Big ticket preamps, eqs,
compressors, etc. Aren't those items a significant improvement over the
ADA8000 preamps?

I have these questions:
1) Why don't you fall for the hype about high-ticket preamps and
converters? I don't think your equipment choice is based 100% on budget
consideration, is it?

2) Psychologically, do you ever feel the sound of the bands you record
have been somewhat compromised by your equipment choice? I always
have this insecurity even though I "know" that the equipment isn't that
important. But I still "feel" the insecurity. You don't seem to have it. Please
show me the way to salvation.

3) What do you think about other engineers' obession for gear?

hmm ... thinking about it, most of my equipment purchases have been
based on fear. "If I don't have this I will not be able to X".

[sstillwell]

I remember reading a tagline on a message board...I think it was n-Track's...don't recall the exact wording, but it was essentially something to the effect that if you couldn't make a decent recording with a Radio Shack stick microphone and a Sound Blaster you should go back and work on your technique until you could.

Mic placement and mixing techniques are going to get you farther than $20K of (insert brand here) converters. What we have now (including the ADA8000) is so ridiculously far ahead of the average equipment of 20 years ago that it's not even funny. SAWStudio just adds to the "unfair advantage". Heck, I made some decent home recordings 20 years ago or so just by ping-ponging back and forth between two stereo decks...the only real problem was noise level from cumulative tape hiss; the recordings themselves were fine. That being said...I could take the proverbial cheap microphone, a Sound Blaster, and ANY DAW program out there and make a recording that would blow those results out of the water. Using any decent card with stable drivers and an ADAT port, something like an ADA8000 and SAWStudio??? Fuggedaboudit.

I find myself falling into the "I need THIS...and THAT...and ooo, THAT looks neat" trap far too often. It's like buying new golf clubs, trying to buy a game instead of getting out and whacking balls and learning from others until you've developed your technique. I've done THAT, too.

Now, if you've got the money to spend on it, and the ears to hear it, and the technical ability to utilize it...great! If one or more of those elements are lacking, you're probably better off with buying the ADA8000s and putting the extra money in an IRA or something. Saving is never a bad thing...

I mean, you kind of hit the nail on the head...listen to what Bob's doing with the ADA8000...sounds pretty darned good to me! I'd rather put the money into the bank, or buy a nice steak dinner (or 20 or 30, if we're talking about Mytek and Millenia)

Sorry for jumping in, I'm sure that Bob can answer for himself, but it's a good topic and wanted to throw my $0.02 in.

Scott Stillwell

[Carey Langille]

Don't let Hype, or Negative Hype Sway your Purchase. The ADA8000 is a Great tool, when used Properly. Dont fall for the Bigger is Better attitude.. Use your Knowledge in recording.. That will take you MUCH further than a piece of gear. I think the Times, they are a changing, and the Competition in Recording is Getting Much tougher. Dont waste you Personal Tools, Your Knowledge.. THAT will make the Biggest Difference!!. I have Used the ADA8000's for 2 yrs, and i tell ya... I have NEVER had one complaint or Question about it....I actually feel that all the talk i did about them to Bob Very Earily on, made him and Many other here try them, and decide for themselves rather than play the Name Game.... Its still your choice, but i choose to keep a few more dollars in my pocket.... This GAME is not only happening with AD/DA Converters but ALL electroincs right now. China has changed the face of electronics and the price of electronics. For the Most part, the quality standards are now very high and the products also very high. Look at all the Great Mics on the market today, processors , ect... Let your ears be the judge... We do it with SawStudio, when we could play the Name game.... Something to think about IMHO.. Have a great day!

[Microstudio]

Great post Alchemist,

This post make me think of one day about 24 years ago.

Me and my good friend loved to go up to the music stores and the High End Audio stores and just look around and dream. We want to a store on this day and their it was...the new Sony 24 Track Digital Tape ,16 bits. We ask the sales man how much it cost....102,000.00...... That was just for the recorder! Some of the best Studios in the world were using that machine and those converters to make some of the best records to this day. A ton of good music came out of the 80's...but what really made it great was the people not the equipment and that is still true today.

I am adding two ADA8000 to my Motu 2408...24 tracks all day.

look at my sig, you can change it to say, every track recorded.

[ffarrell]

There is a old country saying. " Don't get above your ras'in " If you think about it the world is imbracing MP3 as the norm. With that in mind the Behringer 8000 is over kill in bit rate to that final output.

On the other side you find the DVD audio, but it is a much smaller market.

Do I hear the differance? YES
Do I care while I do yard work with a set of ears buds as my " HI FI"? NO

It's like this.
The new Digidesign desk I brought is 24 / 48 and it sounds incredible. Yamaha has 24 / 96, but you can't hear the increse in res. because it is going thru a speaker stack 25 foot in the air and you can't control the room at concert level.

Buying gear is a investment in depreciation.

thanks
fvf

[Mogers]

I have recently been having lustful thoughts about new gear - specifically new A/D converters.

But this morning I was listening to a recording made in 1983 by my friend John Dunkerley at Decca (Ravel Orchestral works, Montreal Symphony, Dutoit). And you know what? It is absolutely stunning. Massive dynamic range, lush sound, tons of "air" and "bloom" and "definition" and "3d soundstage" etc. A deserved winner of the Gramophone magazine award for Best Engineered Recording.

When I worked at Decca in the 80s we used a competely home-built digital recording system, including in-house designed A/Ds. They were nominally 18 bit, but in reality probably more like 16 bit. I've no idea how they measured up - I'd love to find one and test it, if any are still in working order - but I'd be willing to place a bet that the vast majority of converters available today are at least as good - probably including the ADA8000.

They ran at 48kHz, and all Decca's post-production was done at 48kHz. The master tapes were sample-rate converted to 44.1kHz in real time through a Philips SRC when creating the 1630 master for CD PQing (which was my job for a while!) That SRC was probably not very brilliant either - I'm sure Bob's internal Saw SRC is vastly better.

And despite all this, the finished CD still sounds utterly wonderful.

Sometimes it is good for both the wallet and the soul to be reminded that recording is an art - 90% talent and technique, 10% technology.

But I still want those Myteks or Prisms.....

cheers
Mark

[Bob L]

Listening to high-end converters that cost thousands of dollars in pristine listening conditions just do not offer enough sound difference for my taste to merit the cost... then buried under the room effects, mic phasing and artifacts, the band blasting stacks of distorted guitar amps, the drummer bashing away at the cymbals, etc... I think my money can better be spent elsewhere, or kept neatly tucked away in my bank account thank you... The ADA8000 is awesome... it is clean... no ground hum... no splatting when hit hard... etc... what else does it need to do... the fact that it is $230 for 8 channels is unbelievable... without a doubt, the best value on the market.

As you can see, I never follow the crowd when it comes to anything about digital audio... I never followed the crowd when it came to analog audio either... I use my ears... I experiment with what I can afford... then make music.

I have been fortunate to play with the high-end gear in many pro studios on the West Coast during my 35 year audio career... I've built and owned 3 studios during that time also... I designed and hand built my own audio consoles... hand etched my own circuit boards... etc...

Up to a point, I feel you can hear a difference... that point has been passed long ago... all the hype about this preamp having .002 harmonic distortion and this one being better at .0015 distortion... sorry... I just don't buy it...

I mean, how many of you have run out to purchase Monster Cable for your nearfield monitors... did you believe that hype... better bass response in a 20 foot long cable run... I have some ocean front property for sale here in Nevada if you're interested.

I remember doing the demo recordings that landed a few record deals for some singers and bands that went on to have very successful recording careers... I did those with Tascam 4 track and 8 track machines and handfuls of Shure Microphones.

I remember being invited to LA during the tracking session for one of these bands that got signed... there I was sittting in the back of the Control Room in a very prestigious LA studio... I watched with horror as the engineer surrounded the drumkit with about a dozen Neuman mics worth well over $25,000.... just the drums... the sound was horrendous... I could not believe my ears... surely he would adjust this in the final mix... well... he didn't... the drums sounded like they were recorded in the hallway with a pillow over the mics... $25,000 worth of mics... heck I did the demo recordings, which I felt were much more exciting and rich sounding, with less than that much investment for all the equipment in my entire studio.

So I learned early on... its not the gear... its the technique and the skillset you bring to the table... sure the equipment has to work well... you don't want to fight the gear during the process... but owning the high-end gear does not necessarily produce high-end recordings...

The ADA8000 units give us all a great chance to have the ability to do incredible work in our garage studios with a small investment... coupled with an RME and SAWStudio... we all have the ability to have the equivalent of studio's costing hundred's of thousands of dollars... right there in our garages... its awesome.

You have all heard me argue many of the industry ideas... floating point... dither... high-end converters... etc... but I also offer more than just a mouthfiul of arguments... I offer some of my recording work for all to listen to and decide for themselves... if you like what I produce and feel it stands up to or surpasses other recordings that you feel are top notch... then you get the chance to realize... there's more to it than high-priced gear.

Use your ears... decide for yourselves... don't get caught in the hype... if I can record at 44.1k and 16 bits with no dither and you can put my CD projects up beside your favorite famous recordings and feel the sound is as good or better, then perhaps you can realize for yourselves that much of what the industry is telling you may not be so.

I have to laugh at how many tell me how expensive SS is when it actually brings a 72 stereo track recorder, a 72 stereo track fully automated console with very high-end eq and compressors and gates on all channels, a synced video playback system, full digital editing capability... etc, to the table and then in the next breath tell me about the new 2 channel converter they just bought for $9000.... pretty absurd sounding from this side of the fence, I must say.

Bob L

[Bill Park]

I've spent a long time in the enteryainment industry. I start out with the idea that I know nothing, and I try to learn from those with whom I work.

I've learned a lot that way.

I've learned the value of a good mic and a good pre, properly placed.

I've learned the value of a great monitoring chain.

And I have learned to find the point in the price/performance curves in which I can live.

But I have never learned how to praise mediocrity.

I have no problem with people wanting to use the ADA8000. I've recommended them myself, chiefly on the strength of Frank and Bobs experiences. In fact, my brother has removed all the high end front end gear in my studio and replaced it with ADA8000s and his own console. Why? He likes it. He is used to it. (Of course, he took over the room last year about this time and had he just opened it and started recording he would have made a lot of money by now... but I'm sure that many of you have younger siblings, what can you tell them? Usually not much.)

So I'm all for living within your income. But I can't join the parade of how it is just as good as the higher priced options, when my ears clearly hear the difference. You want to save a buck? That is fair. But don't try to convince me that Bud is champagne, or even Rogue Dead Guy. And possibly the world is moving to MP3, but I'm certainly not. I rarely ever listen to an MP3.

I've seen the same discussions concerning mics, and pres, and compressors, and lots of other stuff. But at the end of the day, I find, as Bob says, that the gear has less to do with the final sound than the guy using it. HOWEVER, that does not mean that we should hobble that guy with mediocre gear. If his work sounds great with the cheaper stuff, how great will it sound with top of the line gear?

Let me also suggest that Lynn Fuston, who writes on occasion for EQ and is well known and liked around the audio world, has created a series of disks which can be used to objectively hear the differences among different pieces of gear. If you go to his site at 3daudioinc.com, you'll find an assortment of disks with mic pres, mics, converters, PT verses Neve, ... even a DAW disk specifically laid out to test the summing bus of various DAWs, since there had been a dust up about the summing bus of Pro Tools. (Yes, SAWStudio is represented, I did the SAW portion.) His latest disk is a DVD for mic pres and I've seen the beta.... I highly recommend it.

If we shoot for the lowest common denominator, we begin to think that Pauly Shore is funny, McDonnalds is a hamburger, and Bush is a smart President. Reality shows have substance, the daily doings of Paris Hilton have meaning in our lives, and Jimmy Kimmel is an adequate replacement for Johnny Carson.

Bill

[sstillwell]

Like I said...IF you have the money, and IF you have the ears, and IF you have the talent to utilize it effectively...then go for it. If not, then certainly you're going to get a lot farther with the ADA8000s of this world than with a couple of TASCAM 1/4" decks ping-ponged to each other.

I CERTAINLY don't advocate catering to the lowest common denominator...don't get me started on that.

I'm not saying that there is no difference...I'm saying that the difference, FOR ME, is not worth the extra money. My customers (few as they are) are happy with what I do with what I've got, and so am I, for the most part. Hopefully I will continue to improve my skills, and MAYBE then someday I'll look at dumping cash into a major renovation of my ADDA chain.

I just have to remind myself of that every now and then when I start reaching for my wallet instead of the record button.

Scott Stillwell

[Bob L]

I'm not saying shoot for the lowest common denominator... but simply that at a certain point, the difference is way out of balance between price and actual audible difference.

There is a point beyond which the human ear can not hear a difference and when that point is reached and then the price jumps thousands of dollars for the slightest possible difference in quality... that's where I leave off.

For most of us, budget is a concern... all I am suggesting is that you can maximize your return for a certain amount of investment and most likely, money spent on very high-end converters will affect your final mix in a very slight manner or most likely not at all.

I am suggesting that many other factors involved in capturing the signal from a performer in a room through an eletrical signal chain will play a much more noticable role in the overall final product than the converters.

But heh... someone asked me the question... that's just my answer, which of course just reflects my opinion... obviously the opinions will be varied and widespread... and all are valid.

Bob L