An outsiders hopes for 4.0

[100below]

Before I get into what has been holding me back from moving to SAWStudio, I should start by saying I am a longtime fan. I was at AES San Francisco in 95(?) and met Bob at the original unveiling. I was blown away at the time but heavily invested in traditional studio gear that was working well for me. I have watched the ongoing development ever since and I can think of no other audio software that is as close to what I would design if I had the skills.

I am a producer/songwriter/engineer type but much of my work is actually compositional. This is where the big gap was for me for many years. It’s only relatively recently that Saw has had MIDI implementation on a professional level, however, I still need integrated Notation and advanced MIDI functions on the level of Logic or DP. I own both Logic and Performer and I have been basically satisfied with both products for compositional work, but neither program ever cut it for me for audio.

For many years I would dump to analog or digital multi-track tape and mix on large format consoles, and I still do this today when budgets allow, but I have also been working in a two-DAW environment in my private project studio for ITB mixing.
For the last five-or-so years my Audio DAW has been Paris Pro. Paris and SAWStudio have a similar depth of sound in the mix bus that is different from most other digital mix engines (I have tried them all). DP/Logic/Paris is still working for me, but Paris is no longer supported and comes up short on any number of modern features. So I am back to wishing I could use SAWStudio as an option for the Audio part of my setup.

There are several things on my wish list for SAW but the one item I cannot get past is the lack of standard update functions in fader automation. All DAWS now offer alternative methods to the traditional “moving fader – update on touch” method or the Allison, node based method. Most DAWS include drawing in automation, copy, paste stretch etc., but all other pro solutions still include the option of doing fader-based updates except SAW.
I have been playing with the SAW demo and I realize that I could get good mixes using the SAW method, but I am still old-school enough to want to have the OPTION of riding a fader to do critical mix decisions, particularly for vocal mixing. As a matter of fact, I like to turn off the video monitor completely and make final mix decisions by ear. I have been lucky in my career and I have worked with many world-class singers, and I think I know what the best way to get a good vocal mix is (for me).

I don’t think I am alone in this. I have talked over SAWStudio with other well-known producers and engineers and one of the first questions asked is always: “How well does SAW integrate with the Euphonix MC” (or Smart or other pro controllers).
Each time when I describe the missing update feature, the conversation is over.
The 2005 AES Show in NYC was full of new high-end DAW-Controller solutions because producers want to be able to combine the best of the old hardware based mix environment with the best of the new technologies. But even without large controller integration, this basic feature is what’s holding me back. So I hope to see it included in 4.0. If it is I will be first on line.
Still a big fan and still recommending people check out SAW.

Respectfully,

Gene Lennon


P.S. Completely unrelated but I have a new Macintosh MacBook Pro and just installed Boot Camp - XP. I tested the SAWStudio Demo and it runs great. Very fast and stable.

I don’t have a personal web site but I am quite googleable

[ffarrell]

Welcome

Did you try any audio interface with SAW on the Mac? Also it would be cool if you could install the free speed test app to see what the seek times look like on the Mac.

Thanks
fvf

Before I get into what has been holding me back from moving to SAWStudio, I should start by saying I am a longtime fan. I was at AES San Francisco in 95(?) and met Bob at the original unveiling. I was blown away at the time but heavily invested in traditional studio gear that was working well for me. I have watched the ongoing development ever since and I can think of no other audio software that is as close to what I would design if I had the skills.

I am a producer/songwriter/engineer type but much of my work is actually compositional. This is where the big gap was for me for many years. It’s only relatively recently that Saw has had MIDI implementation on a professional level, however, I still need integrated Notation and advanced MIDI functions on the level of Logic or DP. I own both Logic and Performer and I have been basically satisfied with both products for compositional work, but neither program ever cut it for me for audio.

For many years I would dump to analog or digital multi-track tape and mix on large format consoles, and I still do this today when budgets allow, but I have also been working in a two-DAW environment in my private project studio for ITB mixing.
For the last five-or-so years my Audio DAW has been Paris Pro. Paris and SAWStudio have a similar depth of sound in the mix bus that is different from most other digital mix engines (I have tried them all). DP/Logic/Paris is still working for me, but Paris is no longer supported and comes up short on any number of modern features. So I am back to wishing I could use SAWStudio as an option for the Audio part of my setup.

There are several things on my wish list for SAW but the one item I cannot get past is the lack of standard update functions in fader automation. All DAWS now offer alternative methods to the traditional “moving fader – update on touch” method or the Allison, node based method. Most DAWS include drawing in automation, copy, paste stretch etc., but all other pro solutions still include the option of doing fader-based updates except SAW.
I have been playing with the SAW demo and I realize that I could get good mixes using the SAW method, but I am still old-school enough to want to have the OPTION of riding a fader to do critical mix decisions, particularly for vocal mixing. As a matter of fact, I like to turn off the video monitor completely and make final mix decisions by ear. I have been lucky in my career and I have worked with many world-class singers, and I think I know what the best way to get a good vocal mix is (for me).

I don’t think I am alone in this. I have talked over SAWStudio with other well-known producers and engineers and one of the first questions asked is always: “How well does SAW integrate with the Euphonix MC” (or Smart or other pro controllers).
Each time when I describe the missing update feature, the conversation is over.
The 2005 AES Show in NYC was full of new high-end DAW-Controller solutions because producers want to be able to combine the best of the old hardware based mix environment with the best of the new technologies. But even without large controller integration, this basic feature is what’s holding me back. So I hope to see it included in 4.0. If it is I will be first on line.
Still a big fan and still recommending people check out SAW.

Respectfully,

Gene Lennon


P.S. Completely unrelated but I have a new Macintosh MacBook Pro and just installed Boot Camp - XP. I tested the SAWStudio Demo and it runs great. Very fast and stable.

I don’t have a personal web site but I am quite googleable

[100below]

Welcome

Did you try any audio interface with SAW on the Mac? Also it would be cool if you could install the free speed test app to see what the seek times look like on the Mac.

Thanks
fvf

Yes I used an M-Audio interface because it is one of very few that has beta drivers working in Apple Unicode. (On the OSX side).
I went into a little more detail here under the same screen name:
http://gearslutz.com/board/showthrea...t=65963&page=2
Gene

[Bob L]

I have looked at live fader automation overwrite options and have never been able to take the concept seriously.

I mean no disrespect to the rest of the industry who does it that way now... but compared to the power of simple offline fader moves and slope control that is in the SAWStudio design, the rest look fairly silly, in my opinion.

The accuracy and smoothness of SS automation and the ease and quickness of writing it in where needed without the need for attempting to get it correct live on the fly and then go back and update over a section that isn't quite right... is so much more powerful... once you experiment with it a few times.

I have designed many pieces of code to do the live fader update and have never seen the usefulness in the kludge of it all... so I have never included the feature.

Of course you can do live fader automation during playback... with the mouse or with a control surface... and if you find a section that is not right... simply mark that area and delete it... then go back and fill in the gap as you make another pass.... the live update deletion idea has always been kludgy to me... and the protocols for touch sensitivity are different for every controller and add serious cpu overhead to the tight performance that has been a SS trademark.

I am still experimenting with various methods of implementing the idea... but honestly... I don't know why... it is just simply not something I need to do the best mixes of my career in SS the way it is currently designed.

Bob L

[Perry]

Gene Lennon

Hey.. thanks for the post Gene.. an enteresting read.

And good news on the Intel Mac/Boot Camp report. I've been waitng to hear from someone that's done this already.

Thanks again!

Perry

[100below]

Thanks for getting back to me Bob. Believe me, I have great respect for your vision for SS. It is the very attitude about not following the crowd that has made your software so unique and appealing to me.
For a long time I thought I should just pick something else and not make any comments here, but when you added plugin delay compensation, SS got so close to my dream system that I had to put in a pitch for the one feature I would need to make the jump.
I didn’t expect that you would make the changes for me, but I felt I had to ask.
I will continue lurking and watching for future developments and I promise I will spend some additional time with the demo trying to make the adjustment.
Gene Lennon

I have looked at live fader automation overwrite options and have never been able to take the concept seriously.

I mean no disrespect to the rest of the industry who does it that way now... but compared to the power of simple offline fader moves and slope control that is in the SAWStudio design, the rest look fairly silly, in my opinion.

The accuracy and smoothness of SS automation and the ease and quickness of writing it in where needed without the need for attempting to get it correct live on the fly and then go back and update over a section that isn't quite right... is so much more powerful... once you experiment with it a few times.

I have designed many pieces of code to do the live fader update and have never seen the usefulness in the kludge of it all... so I have never included the feature.

Of course you can do live fader automation during playback... with the mouse or with a control surface... and if you find a section that is not right... simply mark that area and delete it... then go back and fill in the gap as you make another pass.... the live update deletion idea has always been kludgy to me... and the protocols for touch sensitivity are different for every controller and add serious cpu overhead to the tight performance that has been a SS trademark.

I am still experimenting with various methods of implementing the idea... but honestly... I don't know why... it is just simply not something I need to do the best mixes of my career in SS the way it is currently designed.

Bob L

[Larry Burger]

Gene:

I have an old school background so I appreciate your comfort and artistic capabilities on your existing equipment.

If you have already found some advantage in Digital Audio Workstations you have the foundation for productive and creative advantage in SAW.

I have resisted moving away from the traditional approach, and every time SAW has not only allowed me to achieve the task at hand but has truly changed my artistic style as compared to traditional automated mixing consoles. Yes I realize that there was a similar process moving away from manual mixing and destructive tracking.

You are able to stay with your existing equipment and do phenomenal work for the rest of your career. So there is no need to change.

But if you are requiring excellent vocal tracks and a platform to create what you have the gift to hear. If you could exist in the SAW environment for a while to become comfortable and proficient enough to create your ideas you might never go back.
To virtual track and comp real-time inside SAW is an artistic tool.
This will require a paradigm shift to immerse yourself within the environment.

Again you have had great success the way you are doing it so this may never happen, and it will still be OK.

Just some food for thought from someone with a similar background.

Im sure you have seen Bob's videos. If not you may find them helpful and informative.

[aludra]

Hey Gene,

Like you, I am "old school" about vocal fader riding because I am really good at it and hate the sound of compressing the crap out of a vocal so I would'nt have to work that hard at it. Plus learning to ride a vocal well(plus other instruments) the final mix is soooo much more natural sounding.(I got my mixing chops initially mixing lives shows) At first it was difficult for me to get used to Bobs way of automation...... but once you have learned it I can promise you, your vocal rides can never be better. I usually rough in the fades with a controller (mine is a motor mix) then simply go back and insert the values I wanted in exact form. I have done vocal moves I could have only dreamed of just a few years ago. And its really quick. You wouldnt think so coming from automated consoles like the Allison or Euphonix like you suggested but trust me its MUCH faster. I have been mixing for over 25 years and get the BEST mixes I have ever gotten with SawStudio. And don't even get me started on the sound of the mix bus, its the best in the biz and I'm sure others here will chime in and agree with me. Yes the learning curve is stiff....but if you have the time you will find yourself laughing by yourself at how easy and great sounding everything is. Give the demo and videos more time....You wont be sorry!!!!!
Mike Bridges
Germantown Studio, Nashville

[Microstudio]

I will chime in if I may....

I am not a professional engineer but I am a life long engineer/musician and have been writing and recording for well over 25 years. I too have tried all the DAW’s out there and SS is what it is.. A Real True Software Console/Recorder/Effects Rack. The sound of this equipment, will call it that because it is equipment in my book, is the best sounding hands down in the biz.

With all the programs out there, that the millions have grown up to use....its normal for people to walk the beaten path if it gets them to were they want to go. SS is not like any of them in most cases because its simple and a start forward Recorder / Mixer and everyone...me included, is not used to working the Saw way at first.... Automation could not be any simpler and powerful along with recording, mixing and editing...really!

I have a saying that SS makes me think about......”Simplicity can be very difficult”.

SS is Simplicity in the purest form but in the menu/ million selections/ this does this for you and that for you world of software, it can be difficult to break away from the beaten path.....but if you choose to you will start doing things different and much easier with a big smile and feel a little mad at yourself because you waited so long.....really....

As for midi.... you can use any midi software you want, just record the audio in SS.. you will be happy you did.

We will be here waiting for you and ready to help you get off the beaten path when you make the choice....