Different level between SAW and SX

[vanderblast]

Hello,

I'm doing some test on SAW basic (demo). I wonder wy i don't have the same level when playing tracks from cubase sx2 and SAW : Same output device, no correction, and (of course) same imported wavefile. Cubase sounds louder. I need a 4 DB attenuation on cubase's master output to get the same feeling.

Anyway, i really like this soft after a few hours of 'selfbenchmarkinwithautoproductiontakesandpoormoni toringsystem'. The sound IS actually different from a software to an other (i thougt that was another urban legend ! ). SAW sounds more pecise ans less harsh than SX. The GUI is clear and logical, especially for an ex hardware gear user.

[Sam C]

Hi Vanderblast!

I have a different level between SAW and S Forge 8 too! Same wav file, same monitors, etc but SAW is not as loud. I think it has been mentioned before but I do not remember the results.

I was using SX2 at one time, for a test, and I think SAW sounds better as well. It is sure more stable, at least from my experience.

[Bob L]

Make sure you are using the same driver model... if SAWStudio is using MME drivers and SX using ASIO... there could easily be a level difference.

SAWStudio with all input and output faders set at zero db does not alter the sound one bit... it should be exactly sample accurate.

I have no idea what might be going on in the SX data path.

Bob L

[Pedro Itriago]

Pan Law. WHne your pan is dead center, you get the energy of both channels together on your mix will sound louder, because of this most analog consoles throw a -3db attenuation when your audio is paned dead center, to compensate for that effect. Saw does the -3db pan law at l+r (center pan).

You should vivist the quote below. It says that in SX is an option to turn the pan law on or off. My guess is you have it turned off.

a quote form harmony central http://www.harmony-central.com/artic.../panning_laws/:

Panning laws originated in the days of analog mixers. If there was a linear gain increase in one channel and a linear gain decrease in the other channel to change the stereo position, at the center position the sum of the two channels sounded louder than if the signal was panned full left or full right.

To compensate for this, it became common to use a logarithmic gain change response to drop the signal by ***8209;3dB RMS at the center. You could do this by using dual pots for panning with log/antilog tapers, but as those could be hard to find, you could do pretty much the same thing by adding tapering resistors to standard linear potentiometers. Thus, even though signals were being added together from the left and right channels, the apparent level was the same when centered because they had equal power.

And why you fond it on some and not in others:

But this "law" was not a standard. Some engineers preferred to drop the center level a bit more, either because they liked the signal to seem louder as it moved out of the main center zone, or because signals that "clumped up" around the center tended to "monoize" the signal. So, dropping their levels a little further created more of an illusion of stereo. And some of the people using analog consoles had their own little secret tweaks to change the panning characteristics.

[Pedro Itriago]

Now you got me there. Isn't the -3db pan law implemented in saw?. Where did I get this idea from?

[Mark Stebbeds]

I have a different level between SAW and S Forge 8 too! Same wav file, same monitors, etc but SAW is not as loud. I think it has been mentioned before but I do not remember the results.

Out of curiosity, I just a did volume check with SS, SF, and Nuendo, and they all sounded the same output volume to me, using the same RME audio card. A mix out test at default fader settings revealed slight -0.2 db differences on a few peaks on the SS mix, as compared to the original file, FWIW.

I know exactly what you mean however, and have experienced it before. I never put my finger on it, and it's not happening today.

Regarding a sound quality difference between them, I don't hear any appreciable difference, and if one seemed to have a little more impact, it was a moving target...so I say it's a push in that regard. (based on today's test of listening to one stereo file)

Mark

[Pedro Itriago]

Follow the Harmony Central link I posted. It shows like 5 different places were the pan law can be set in the host and the asio driver control panel in SX

[Mark Stebbeds]

Now you got me there. Isn't the -3db pan law implemented in saw?. Where did I get this idea from?

On my test of using default settings and stereo files, this did not come into play.

mark

[vanderblast]

fast replys here !!!!

thanks.

SAW was using MME driver (that's wy it could run with sx at the same time).
sx pan was set to default (-3db).

I switched SAW on the soundcard ASIO driver (same as sx), but i got the same difference.

Next step :
I exported a 'mixdown' on both sx and SAW, and played the files with real player : the level are the same (same as SAW monitoring level).

[AudioAstronomer]

SX has the pan law on by default and I wonder if it has a built in makeup somewhere along the chain...

Now as for soundforge being there as well.. that's very curious. I've never noticed that.