Audience miking methods

[demodoc]

I do a lot of live recording in fairly small venues, such as coffee houses and small theaters. I am mostly recording acoustic/folk music. I get very good audience recordings these days by putting up a pair of crisp-sounding small diaphragm condensers on stands, one each side of the stage up about 7 feet, pointing above the audiences' heads so I hear the crowd and not individual audience members. Currently, I'm using a pair of Studio Projects c-4's which I don't like for anything EXCEPT audience pickup, which their top end peak helps. I am happy with the clarity and definition and the stereo imaging. This is fine for applause between songs etc. But I am going to record a satirical singer-songwriter in a small venue (like 40-50 people) and I want to be sure and get all the laughs clearly on the tracks. I can allow for as many audience tracks as I need, though I figure I won't need more than 4 maximum. The last time I recorded him, I had trouble getting as much of the laughter as I wanted while not washing out the recording with too much "room" when these channels were brought up in the mix. I know this is unavoidable to some extent, obviously. What I'd like to hear are some ideas for getting the most laughter/applause pickup and the least negative effects on the recording of who is on stage. I haven't seen the venue yet but I know it's very small and is fairly live. It's a wide, shallow room. I plan on using a pretty tight patterned vocal mic, maybe a Beta 58. I love my AKG 535's but in this situation, I think they'd be a bit too wide. On the guitar I will have his DI but also a small diaphragm condenser, such as an SM-81. My experience with his pickup was that it sounds only fair, useful, maybe to round out the bottom but that's all. And of course, we'll try and keep the stage monitor as low as possible.

If we assume that I will have my standard pair of C-4's with cardiod capsules point out from the stage on each side as my main pickup, where would additional mics help me the most, considering the room size etc? I know hypercardioids and shotguns are commonly used, though I don't own any right now, they'd have to be rented. Years ago I had great luck with AKG 460's with hypercardioid capsules. Ideas are welcome....

This will end up as a commercially available CD so we're going for the best we can get.

I know there will be a bunch of ideas, lets hear them.

[mycorn]

you'v pretty much hit all the obvious stuff

things like PZM's on the ceiling work but again
you'l be flooded with room

if you end up with some measurable length
of laughter between songs you can fly it in
on spots you dont feel it's hot enough

i'v dont this with applause on fadeouts

fwiw

mh

[MMP]

I would try an M/S pair facing back center if you can fly it and not interfere with sight lines.

This would give you a little more control over the stereo image in post.


Regards,

MM

[Bill Park]

Perfect for shotguns.

[demodoc]

I may, indeed look into some shotguns or hyper cardioids. As I said the AKG 460's with the hypercardioid capsules were great when I used them years ago in a room a bit bigger than this one...also not as live.

I do own a Shure VP-88 which is an M-S design...don't know what I'll be able to do in the room as far as mounting them. I will probably take a run out there between now and show night so I can assess the situation. The Vp-88 sounds OK, not great, as an audience mic, I've found. The little C-4's are much clearer, overall.

I won't be doing the post on this one. I'm just recording the tracks and handing them over so I want to give the mixer something he/she can work with, obviously.

Keep the input coming....thanks!

[Bob L]

For those special situations you may find a good library of audience reaction and laughter sound effects would be the best and easiest way to enhance the live capture without compromising the sound of the main mix by having loud open audioence mics mixed in.

Bob L

[demodoc]

With all due respect, Bob, that's not really what we're after. We don't mind some room in the recording, just not "too much". If my client feels, after he edits and mixes the show, that it needs some spicing up, he can always stack the laughs from the other show on top of the first one. (he's doing two shows that night) That way, it will all match. I will bet that with an ingenious mic technique, I can get what I'm looking for. Listen to the great comedy albums from the 60's...Bill Cosby, Bob Newhart etc. They did this very well. I'm sure I can too. I'm just looking for the most effective way to do it. Thanks for the suggestion, though.

[Mountain Media]

......Listen to the great comedy albums from the 60's...Bill Cosby, Bob Newhart etc. They did this very well. I'm sure I can too. I'm just looking for the most effective way to do it......

If you can do it without 'sightline' problems, an X-Y with your cardioids might be a good option, depending on the size of the room. With the spread mics you may introduce phasing issues into the recording, where the X-Y will minimize this. And, they can be panned to give almost mono, or more 'stereo'. I've found X-Y to be a good audience option, because I seem to get more gain without the phasing being annoying. Just a thought....

[Naturally Digital]

Perfect for shotguns.

+1

[demodoc]

Yes, X-Y is always good ...and you're right about less phase problems. I do like the wide and deep soundstage I get from the spaced mics though. Maybe I should do both and just put them on separate pairs of tracks. How about ORTF? A friend of mine used to just mount two sdc's on a tall stand with the two mics about 6" apart or so, not angled in or outward, just looking straight out, parallel to each other. Seems like it could get phasey but it didn't. I never cared for it because I didn't get the wide soundstage I like on an audience. I actually have been complimented a number of times on the audience sound I get with the spaced mics, but your point is very well taken and I will consider an X-Y pair as well.