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  1. Default 2013 & SAC: Where are we going anyway?

    Dear SAC Heads,

    the last couple of months I did lot's of live gigs with various desks. From Yamaha 01V96 up to Soundcraft Vi6 and Midas Pro06. Beeing a member of the Behringer X32 beta test team, I did lot's of shows with this desk as well. Sadly I did only about five or six gigs with my small SAC rig.
    To sum it up, soundwise I get the best results with my SAC rig. Period!

    On the other hand, I must confess, that I'm dissapointed with the fact, that there seems to be no further development in the SAC enviroment. And I mean soft- and hardwarewise.

    For me, it is annoying that we still don't have a serious hardware controller and that we still have to bugger about with the ADAT crap and ADAT cables, that never have been designed to go "on the road". I'm still waiting for the monitor view and the SAC player. I don't want to be ungreatful, but I would like to know, if there will be any real improvements in 2013???

    Concerning remoteable preamps, I know, that Rolf from Appsys is already working on a AES50 to MADI/ADAT converter for the Behringer S-16. This would be truly a step ahead!
    I do have three S-16 already, and did some measurements with them:





    As you can see, the latency of the S16/X32 is that low, that a combination with a RME MADI card (running with 32 samples) would still be good enough for real time audio.

    On the other hand, I really would like to see some serious updates to SAC as well. I would be a shame, if lot's of the potential of SAC becomes idle.
    Just sayin'

    All the best for 2013!
    Christian


  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    UK A&H with SAC insert - SAWstudio_Lynx Aurora16_API-Neve Preamps_Behrckie controller
    Posts
    239

    Default Re: 2013 & SAC: Where are we going anyway?

    Finally a useful SAC post. thank you and agreed.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Cleveland, OH
    Posts
    3,493

    Default Re: 2013 & SAC: Where are we going anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wurst Werner View Post

    the last couple of months I did lot's of live gigs with various desks. From Yamaha 01V96 up to Soundcraft Vi6 and Midas Pro06. Beeing a member of the Behringer X32 beta test team, I did lot's of shows with this desk as well. Sadly I did only about five or six gigs with my small SAC rig.
    To sum it up, soundwise I get the best results with my SAC rig. Period!
    Just curious do you feel this way because of the sound quality of SAC or the work flow or some combination?


    Quote Originally Posted by Wurst Werner View Post
    For me, it is annoying that we still don't have a serious hardware controller and that we still have to bugger about with the ADAT crap and ADAT cables, that never have been designed to go "on the road". I'm still waiting for the monitor view and the SAC player. I don't want to be ungreatful, but I would like to know, if there will be any real improvements in 2013???
    Anyone that is holding their breath waiting for a "serious" hardware controller for SAC (whatever that means) is wasting their time. Just read many years worth of old posts... if they haven't been deleted. Bob has made it pretty clear that he doesn't see the need and this is not even close to a priority for him. I doubt anyone will ever change his mind. If you want more than just faders with mute and solo (and some allow for channel select), then you probably should just look elsewhere than SAC. It really is just that simple.

    Even if you or someone else could convince him to spend the time on it there are a lot of potential pitfalls. First being cost. By the time you assembled a surface that allowed for knobs for all the EQ, Dynamic etc... along with faders and such your now at a financial investment that is at least equal to if not more than what you could just go out and buy an off the shelf solution for. The control surface really is the most expensive part of your typical digital console. This was explained to me by the PM5d team during it's early days when they were traveling around showing it off. That's why they could sell you a DSP5d for so much less. Same console.. just without the surface. Obviously things will always get cheaper as processes are streamlined and such. The X32 is a great example of banking on the development of products before it and allowing that level of technology to come way down in price.

    There is also the issue of what I call flavor of the month. The control surface market is constantly in flux and it's rare that any one particular product lasts very long. Just look at the supported list of surfaces for SAC. Only the BCF and the Mackie are currently available and shipping products. All the others are discontinued gear that at best you can find used on eBay and have them refurbished. (thinking Motormix here) Yeah if SAC had better MIDI or possibly OSC support (or the talked about, but never appeared API came about) then users could have more power to "roll their own". But that is a very time consuming task and means cobbling together a lot of disparate pieces parts. Which just makes it similar to dealing with a handful of audio interfaces using ADAT I/O to get the sound in and out of your computer.

    Just out of curiosity, what would you consider a "serious" control surface for SAC? What would it entail? How integrated would you expect it to be? How much do you think someone would be willing to pay for it?

    I guess I just don't see the point because to me SAC's strongest selling point is the bang for the buck. And that comes from the fact that you can use relatively inexpensive computer hardware to build a fairly sophisticated mixing system. The downside is you have to be willing to be a bit of tinkerer type. And as the out of the box solutions get more sophisticated for lower prices over time they will compete more and more with SAC. It's just the way the market works. I've seen it happen many times.
    Richard B. Ingraham
    RBI Sound
    http://www.rbisound.com
    Email Based User List: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/sac_users/

  4. Default Re: 2013 & SAC: Where are we going anyway?

    Just curious do you feel this way because of the sound quality of SAC or the work flow or some combination?
    I must admit, that the Midas Pro06 sounds very nice too. Even the X32 is decent in terms of FX and MicPres, but I can't get the same sound out of it like when going with SAC. Lots of my sound comes from the shxtload of VST Plugins, that I used in SAC since I got my SAC rig. Probably, this is the main reason that I perfere SAC...at least soundwise.

    Concernig the controller, I think I didn't make myself clear enough. All I ask for is a API/OSC documentation, so that there is at least the chance, that someone jumps on that train and gives us a step ahead to the BCF2000. No need for Bob to design a hardware controller on his own.

    I just get the feeling, that the development of SAC is stucked. Bob is free to do what ever he want's to do. But it would be nice to know, if SAC 3.0 is the final release or if there is more to come.
    Christian


  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Bainbridge Island, WA
    Posts
    2,064

    Default Re: 2013 & SAC: Where are we going anyway?

    Thanks for a reasoned and intelligent conversation, Richard and Christian. I think we should all be interested in seeing Bob's reply.
    Currently using:
    T43p Thinkpad w/XP SP3 for FOH, Subs and Front Fill Mixes (20% CPU load);
    T500 Thinkpad w/Win7 SP1 for 6 Monitor Mixes (15% CPU load)
    Running at 2x32
    2 Digifaces, 1 w/CardBus, 1 w/ExpressCard
    3-Octamic-D for mic inputs - using the dual outputs to split the ADAT signal to the Digifaces;
    1-RME ADI-8 Pro for all FOH sends; 1-RME ADI-8 Pro for all Monitor sends;

  6. #6

    Default Re: 2013 & SAC: Where are we going anyway?

    Hopefully SAC is going all the way to the top... hopefully SAC is going to impact the audio industry in a major way... but that all depends on how things play out.

    I have been and am continuing negotiations for serious funding and possible brand name manufacturing to get involved... but... contracts and lawyers can be a challanging experience, and there is no way to guarentee the outcome.

    I have big plans... for a mic pre / converter front-end with direct ethernet connections to SAC which would bypass all Windows soundcard hardware and drivers... there are prototypes for an ethernet SAC specific control surface being experimented with as we speak, that would offer a full Wide Mixer channel as well as x numbers of faders... there are concepts for brand name turnkey SAC systems as well as system components to be made available for the do-it-yourselfers who still like the idea of building their own systems... new plugin offerings are in the works... etc... etc...

    But... there really is nothing to say about all of it unless a real deal can be finalized... so I prefer not to discuss these things that may or may not actually materialize.

    But... all of my focus and energy is directed at making these things a reality... in the meantime, I hope to continue updating the basic design and adding in many of the to-do list items that have been visualized since the beginning... we'll see.

    There is no way to put these developments on a schedule... things have to play out as they play out.

    As an aside... we closed the Harrah's Legends show after a more than 4 year run with SAC and SAWStudio and now they have signed a new contract with another hotel that will be using 2 new SAC systems as well... exciting stuff.

    Lee will also be on tour with the Legends Elvis tour starting the first week of Jan using his SAC and SAWStudio setup... we are hoping to have a live streaming setup out with him that will allow us to follow the tour progress... during stage setups... on the bus... etc... hopefully, users will be able to interact with him and possibly meet with him to see and hear his setup in a city near where they live... it should be interesting. Information will be posted on the forum and/or website as it becomes available.

    We have had lots of demos and meetings with some major artists and hopefully this year a few of these tours will show up in a city near you using a SAC setup.

    So... lots of big plans going on here behind the scenes... hopefully this year is an explosive year for SAC... we'll just have to wait and watch what happens.

    Bob L

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Fresno CA USA
    Posts
    966

    Default Re: 2013 & SAC: Where are we going anyway?

    Stay focused
    I'm willing to wait.

    Hap

  8. Default Re: 2013 & SAC: Where are we going anyway?

    All very interesting possibilities, Bob. I look forward to these becoming reality.

  9. #9

    Default Re: 2013 & SAC: Where are we going anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by RBIngraham View Post
    Anyone that is holding their breath waiting for a "serious" hardware controller for SAC (whatever that means) is wasting their time. Just read many years worth of old posts... if they haven't been deleted. Bob has made it pretty clear that he doesn't see the need and this is not even close to a priority for him. I doubt anyone will ever change his mind. If you want more than just faders with mute and solo (and some allow for channel select), then you probably should just look elsewhere than SAC. It really is just that simple.

    Even if you or someone else could convince him to spend the time on it there are a lot of potential pitfalls. First being cost. By the time you assembled a surface that allowed for knobs for all the EQ, Dynamic etc... along with faders and such your now at a financial investment that is at least equal to if not more than what you could just go out and buy an off the shelf solution for. The control surface really is the most expensive part of your typical digital console. This was explained to me by the PM5d team during it's early days when they were traveling around showing it off. That's why they could sell you a DSP5d for so much less. Same console.. just without the surface. Obviously things will always get cheaper as processes are streamlined and such. The X32 is a great example of banking on the development of products before it and allowing that level of technology to come way down in price.
    I'd be very happy with Mackie MCU/XT/C4 units if they could be stacked together. Give me a SACRemote API and I'll have MCU + 3XT + C4 working in a month, guaranteed.

    I could run them off individual SACRemote systems, but the look and feel isn't quite right as they aren't synchronized with one another.

    For me, this would be ideal:

    3 Mackie XT units providing (bankable) 24 channels of input channels.
    1 Mackie MCU providing Aux Returns, Outputs, Groups/DCA (banked).
    1 Mackie C4 for the Wide view, linked to the current hot channel.

    Granted, the C4 isn't made anymore (though I have one and they can be found if you look around). Using a Berhinger BCR2000 would work almost as well (though no scribble strips; would have to use the monitor which isn't too bad for that particular application).

    I've played around with having a couple XT units work together to simulate a single MCU unit, it really bogs down SAC because of all the extraneous MIDI communication that has to take place. Getting this to run on SACRemote (using an API) is the right way to do it so it doesn't affect the host machine.
    cheers,
    Randy Hyde
    -------------------
    For the interested, SAC setup here: http://www.plantation-productions.co.../SACSetup.html
    Plantation Productions:http://www.plantation-productions.com

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Southern Tablelands, NSW, Australia
    Posts
    1,075

    Default Re: 2013 & SAC: Where are we going anyway?

    Hope it all works our Bob, it would be great to see SAC and possibly SAW get their due recognition...

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