OT: Making the move to 5.1 -- need your input

A film client has come to me asking for a 5.1 mix. If he had $10,000 this would be a no-brainer. As is so often the case with these sorts of things at my level of the biz, however, he has something less than that to offer as compensation. :p

I have the panning capability (SAW) and the DA's (I'd pull out one of my ADA8000's). Can anyone recommend a fairly inexpensive route to 5.1 system speakers? Is it worth considering to get a consumer system for a few hundred bucks? I thought I'd heard talk of folks doing that around here in the past.

I currently have a pair of HR824's. Ideally, I suppose, I'd fill out the center and rears with more of those, or perhaps the newer MkII's. Or even lesser Mackie's. Then a subwoofer. Three new 824's would more than exhaust what is being proposed for compensation, and I haven't been getting requests for 5.1 till now, so I'm not excited about going that route.

That said, I often think about trying to do some marketing toward independent filmmakers and spinning up that segment of my service offerings, so in theory it could be an okay investment. Or am I deluding myself?

I told myself the same thing when I decided to pony up for the ADA's and a headphone amp and a new laptop and an RME CardBus card -- hoping to get the remote recording end of things going. Hasn't really happened. (though did at least pay for those in the first year or two)

So... will a consumer 5.1 system get the job done, then? Or another cost-effective alternative? Am I hoping against hope?

Any input from those having traveled this road are welcome and appreciated.

That's a tough one and I've been in that same boat for a while.

I was thinking I could buy a third speaker (perhaps used on eBay) to match my stereo pair as a center speaker, which is important to match for dialog, and then perhaps get a less expensive set for the rears which are more for effect and fill.

I found the sub-woofer options to be expensive and the cheap ones to be unpopular among those who have tried them.

The other expensive option is the control center and bass management unit for the surround system.

Thomas

So many factors here, Dave! If you think this will be a rare thing, and if you're mixing just for DVD and not for theatrical releases, then I think you're fine to jury-rig a system and save a ton of money. Very few consumers have Dolby-approved setups at home, so following the rules and going for matched speakers all around is somewhat overkill***8212;unless, again, you're mixing for theatrical release, which means there must be a Dolby dubbing session on a Dolby-approved stage somewhere, in which case it's likely a 5.1 mix made on a bizarre system won't translate well.

That said, many designers of 5.1 mixing spaces concede that it really isn't absolutely necessary for the rear surrounds to match the front L/R monitors, because the fact is that even with big, mondo Hollywood blockbuster mixes, the surrounds almost never carry critical information. Quick pass by or pass-through effects, ambience, the occasional ethereal placement, but all the attention is always focused up front. So even if you decide to go for new Mackies, I think you'd be fine to go with 624's for the rears. Definitely match your center to your mains, though, as you'll have a lot of information that is shared by or passes through all three.

Whatever speaker set you go with, you'll absolutely need bass management. So you'll either need a console that does that, or add an external monitor controller with bass management included. This is essential. And you'll need to calibrate the room using tones and a meter, and take note of different calibration levels for different mix destinations.

Room acoustics are another story, of course, and there may or may not be anything you can do with the space you're in. In any event, go for it! I don't get to do enough 5.1 mixes, but they are always a gas. One of my major production clients just finished their first stereoscopic shoot, which of course must be accompanied by a 5.1 mix, so I'm hoping they'll become so enamored with this combo that they never again settle for 2-D and stereo.

I would stay with the monitoring you know and add a center channel of the same model and cheap out on the rears.

I would look at the Blue Sky Bass Management system, as it combines both a monitor controller and bass management into one system.

When I built my 5.1 system, it wasn't available and I got a bass management system from Martinsound and a monitor controller from Studio Technolgies.

Anyway you look at it, it is an investment and a learning experience.

I do know of a studio here that does Discovery Channel work that uses a high end consumer surround system with it's own bass management built into the receiver, so it can be done that way. But, then in addition to mixing in a new format, you have to learn the new speakers as well. I decided that wouldn't be the best choice for me or my clients and I returned the JBL system I originally thought could do the job for me at a lower price tag.

Anyhow, good luck. The mixing part is more fun than the check writing part.

Regards,

MM

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MMP

I would stay with the monitoring you know and add a center channel of the same model and cheap out on the rears.

I would look at the Blue Sky Bass Management system, as it combines both a monitor controller and bass management into one system.

When I built my 5.1 system, it wasn't available and I got a bass management system from Martinsound and a monitor controller from Studio Technolgies.

Anyway you look at it, it is an investment and a learning experience.

I do know of a studio here that does Discovery Channel work that uses a high end consumer surround system with it's own bass management built into the receiver, so it can be done that way. But, then in addition to mixing in a new format, you have to learn the new speakers as well. I decided that wouldn't be the best choice for me or my clients and I returned the JBL system I originally thought could do the job for me at a lower price tag.

Anyhow, good luck. The mixing part is more fun than the check writing part.

Regards,

MM

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Thanks for your input, gents. Two things:

Thing One: this first 5.1 project is doc-style. Haven't seen it yet, but I wonder if I could get away without using aa sub-woofer and bass management system. Am I asking for trouble? Or is this a reasonable thought, if there is no bass content outside of what's typical for music and dialogue?

Thing Two: I moved in with some video guys last year. My current mixing space is smaller and very asymmetrical. 9 x 12 room with my mix position about six feet from one corner. My left shoulder is about 2.5 feet from one of the long walls. Is there any way to make this work?

Hey -- I found a plan I made when I was setting it up last year:

http://www.labrecquecreativesound.co...oor%20Plan.PNG


Is this at all workable for 5.1?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stashu

Dave,

I'm not a purist when it comes to sound and perfect quality. Mid range equipment will do a good job and save some cash.
BUT, the one thing I hold to is keeping things equal to make a mix. We'd never think of having different left and right speakers, and try to mix. So, in the Surround realm, try that same thinking. The four speakers L-R Front and L-R back should be equal or matched up pretty well. Otherwise, your mix will be uneven. The end product could be front or backloaded.
So, my $.02 is to even up your back monitors with something close to the front specs, get a decent Sub, and mix away!

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Thanks, Stash. How would you rate the importance of the center channel speaker as being matched to the front L and R?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dave Labrecque

Am I asking for trouble?

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Yes. And if it were me, I would set up the room with the mixing position on the 9' wide end. You can more easily calculate and adjust for reflections and nodes.

Thomas

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dave Labrecque

A film client has come to me asking for a 5.1 mix. If he had $10,000 this would be a no-brainer.

Or am I deluding myself?

Any input from those having traveled this road are welcome and appreciated.

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My recommendation? Run, don't walk, away from this project.

I spent relatively big money to build a 5.1 system, with Dunlavys and a Velodyne sub. Definitely never paid off.

In terms of what you should use...Read the spec. The 5s are supposed to be full range and are supposed to match.

In terms of working without a sub, well that is just stupid, and I can cite a perfect example why... we had a guy with a home edited video show up on a gig, and the video was a big deal presentation of the whole reason for the event.... and he mixed it at home without a sub. Encoded the 5.1. The low end rumble and noise that was all over the video was just horrible. He never heard it on his less than full range mix system without a sub, but the crap was across all channels.

Again, read the spec. Your room layout makes proper speaker placement a pretty serious problem.

Are you sure this is a 5.1 video only project, or is it another format for film? This article may help: http://www.mkpe.com/publications/d-c...ltichannel.php

From my experience, surround was a bust, a big waste of money and a huge expenditure in energy and labor that did not even come close to covering costs. By the time you learn how to set it up properly, mix it properly, etc, it is a large negative number far exceeding the simple costs of the products. There is a lot to learn to do it right, and nothing to learn if you just want to toss a product out there and hope nobody notices that you didn't know what you were doing. And understand, I attended a couple of 5.1 seminars wherein they were playing some pretty top flight projects and braggin' on them. Imagine the presenters state of mind when I pointed out that one of the big deal projects that was mixed by big names had the center channel out of position/time on listening. I surmised that this happened because the center speaker was in a direct line with the L and R when mixed, so when played back on a properly set up system the center channel arrived late.

If you do go on with this... read the spec. read the spec. read the spec.

And in my opinion yes, you are deluding yourself. There is no money in surround, and the new push is into 7.1 in the hopes of stirring some interest. (I've heard 6.2 that was exciting, but not exciting enough to make me buy it. 7.1 seems just so totally stupid to me.....)

Dave—

You have to have a sub, due to the problems Bill points out (unless you're providing all the audio and can assure that there is no low frequency junk). If you opt to try it without a sub, I'd put a hi-pass filter at 80 Hz across all five outputs and send nothing to the LFE channel.

And the room dimensions look a bit problematic. Your mix position must be equidistant from all five speakers. My spatial skills aren't good enough to say whether that's even possible in this room.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bill Park

My recommendation? Run, don't walk, away from this project.

I spent relatively big money to build a 5.1 system, with Dunlavys and a Velodyne sub. Definitely never paid off.

In terms of what you should use...Read the spec. The 5s are supposed to be full range and are supposed to match.

In terms of working without a sub, well that is just stupid, and I can cite a perfect example why... we had a guy with a home edited video show up on a gig, and the video was a big deal presentation of the whole reason for the event.... and he mixed it at home without a sub. Encoded the 5.1. The low end rumble and noise that was all over the video was just horrible. He never heard it on his less than full range mix system without a sub, but the crap was across all channels.

Again, read the spec. Your room layout makes proper speaker placement a pretty serious problem.

Are you sure this is a 5.1 video only project, or is it another format for film? This article may help: http://www.mkpe.com/publications/d-c...ltichannel.php

From my experience, surround was a bust, a big waste of money and a huge expenditure in energy and labor that did not even come close to covering costs. By the time you learn how to set it up properly, mix it properly, etc, it is a large negative number far exceeding the simple costs of the products. There is a lot to learn to do it right, and nothing to learn if you just want to toss a product out there and hope nobody notices that you didn't know what you were doing. And understand, I attended a couple of 5.1 seminars wherein they were playing some pretty top flight projects and braggin' on them. Imagine the presenters state of mind when I pointed out that one of the big deal projects that was mixed by big names had the center channel out of position/time on listening. I surmised that this happened because the center speaker was in a direct line with the L and R when mixed, so when played back on a properly set up system the center channel arrived late.

If you do go on with this... read the spec. read the spec. read the spec.

And in my opinion yes, you are deluding yourself. There is no money in surround, and the new push is into 7.1 in the hopes of stirring some interest. (I've heard 6.2 that was exciting, but not exciting enough to make me buy it. 7.1 seems just so totally stupid to me.....)

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Thanks for your no-nonsense advice, Bill.

At this point, he just wants a decent mix for festivals. Would you think 5.1 is overkill for that? Does anyone know how common 5.1 is vs. stereo for festivals?

I was hoping using the HR824's (which have pretty darned good bass response for their size, I think) and rolling off the bass below 40 Hz or so, I could get away without a sub. Not quite, huh? :o

But, wouldn't a stereo mix suffer the same bass problems then, without a sub?